Pat originally hails from out west: Grapevine, Texas. He went to Holy Trinity Catholic School from kindergarten through 8th grade. The school was co-ed and catered to Roman Catholics.

W.T. When did sex ed start at your school?

Pat: 4th grade. It consisted of the basics. How it works, how it’s done. 4th grade was more about how babies are made and this is what boys have and this is what girls have.5th grade was more about social aspects and how sex is viewed in Catholic life. Specifically everything is a sin before marriage. Doing anything sexual turns you away from God. The things that stuck out in my mind: masturbation’s a sin. Don’t do it.

W.T. But they told you what it was?

Pat: Yes, they told us what it was and they defined it, and immediately following it said masturbation is a sin and it turns you away from God. It’s a very serious thing. And I guess they talked about anti-gay stuff too. Definitely by 5th grade. Again, everything is a sin. Sex before marriage is a sin.

W.T. What’d they say about gays?

Pat: Well, they quote the Bible about how sodomy is a sin. Homosexuality in general is a sin. And of course they used logic saying, “Sex before marriage is a sin, and since gay people can’t get married, they’re constantly sinners.” Even your thoughts shouldn’t be that way, because when you do the symbol of the cross on your head, you shouldn’t be thinking impure thoughts.

W.T. What’d they say about contraception? Did they tell you it even existed?

Pat: No, it was very abstinence-only. Don’t do it. Don’t have sex, you’ll get pregnant or you’ll get a disease and you’ll die or you’ll have a baby and it will be the worst thing. I don’t ever really remember learning about contraception until I took a health class freshman year in Illinois. It was a public school then and in a video, and they told us it was an option.

W.T. Do you ever remember talking about homosexuality with your peers?

Pat: Not that I can really remember. It was such a taboo thing you didn’t say. No one was gay and it was expected that you weren’t. I went to a YMCA summer camp once which I guess has Christian affiliations, and if you ever did something that was gay you were completely made fun of. It was pretty bad. It was definitely used as an insult. A big putdown.

W.T. Alright, and when did you come out?

Pat: Two years ago, so sophomore year of college.

W.T. Are you out to your parents?

Pat: No. My mother is from Sicily. Her entire family is from Sicily. They were raised extremely devout Catholic. All of them are very devout and all of them are very anti-gay. Very intolerant of it and unaccepting. And then there’s my father’s side. He’s from Louisiana. So they were raised in the south, but my dad had a brother who was gay, and he died of AIDS. That was maybe 6 – 8 years ago. And so I think he blamed gay people for killing his brother. And he’s ex-military. He used to be in the army, in Vietnam. So does that make sense as to why I’m a bit hesitant?

W.T. Are you dependent on your parents?

Pat: I am for undergrad, but once I graduate in 7 months I am cut off. So at that point I won’t be dependent on them. That definitely has a factor with coming out to my mother. She likes to use that Italian guilt to hold anything over my head. She pays for my car insurance for example. I can’t afford that on my own. And if I don’t do something that she wants, she’ll threaten to take that away. So I guess you could say it’s a financial move.

W.T. Are there other repercussions?

Pat: My mother has made it quite obvious that she does not like gay people whatsoever. Being an only child is also harder because they only have me and I guess there’s sort of an unconditional love that could run out.

W.T. When did you first realize you were gay?

Pat: Not until junior high. If I did have thoughts before then, they were stamped out.

W.T. Did you ever date girls?

Pat: Yeah. One relationship was pretty serious. At the time it was anyway. And then freshman year of college I dated a girl for a while. That was a clusterfuck because I really didn’t know what I liked at that point. I was going back and forth. It may have been more of a way to prove something to myself. It ended with, “I’m not really attracted to you.” She knows now and she’s kind of whatever. The one from high school loves it and she thinks it’s awesome. The other one’s just like, “Okay.”

W.T. Has your idea of sexual deviance changed over time?

Pat: Yes. When I first started college I truly believed that you would go to Hell if you had sex before marriage. There was no doubt in my mind. That’s what you’re told and I believed it. I had no reason not to. And now I believe if God really is there, I would really hope he has more important things to worry about than who you’re having sex with.

W.T. You said, “If God really is there,” so what do you believe today?

Pat: I call myself reformed Catholic. I believe religion is a very personal thing and you should believe what you want. It doesn’t matter what anyone else believes. I believe in God and Jesus and all that good stuff, but the fine print is different for me than what it is for the Roman Catholic Church. I don’t really like that there’s a set way to believe in something.

W.T. How do you feel about the Bible?

Pat: It’s a mistranslation. It’s a 4,000 year old book that is riddled with mythology, which we don’t understand because we don’t have any Hebrew speakers, by which I mean Hebrew as it was spoken back then. It’s a book that’s so outdated and out of touch that I don’t really believe in it at all. It’s just good literature. It shows human psyche from 4,000 years ago and I think that’s worth something.

W.T. How do you feel about the sacraments? If you were to get married, would you want it to be in a church?

Pat: I wouldn’t want it to be somewhere I’m not welcome, so I don’t think it would be there.

W.T. Is it important for you to be married in the eyes of God?

Pat: In my opinion I still would be. I would probably go through a church that does accept it.

W.T. Do you want to get married at some point?

Pat: I think at some point in my life, yes. If anything for tax purposes at the very least. That may or may not make me a horrible person but I’m okay with that. Love without marriage is still love. But taxes without marriage are so damn expensive.

W.T. How do you feel about adoption?

Pat: I think it’s a wonderful thing and there needs to be more of it. If I were to have kids I would probably take that route. I do want an Asian baby, not gonna lie.

W.T. Was there ever any guilt when coming to terms with your homosexuality?

Pat: There was a lot of self-hatred and a lot of self-doubt that was really eating away at me and almost consuming me to a point. Then again, this was when I started going through a minor religious crisis and that’s when I started to become in the religious mode that I am in now. You can’t be both, according to the church.

W.T. Can you explain a little bit about the self-doubt?

Pat: When you’re told from the time you’re 4 or 5 through the time you’re 13 or 14 that being this way is a one-way ticket to Hell and God hates you and you are not accepted, you don’t exist. They don’t recognize you. It was very, “Why me?” If we’re all made in God’s image, then why is that not true for some of us?

W.T. How did the priest scandal affect you?

Pat: It was a mixture of disappointment, anger, and embarrassment. They look like big hypocrites. They’re outcasts now in their respected communities. I felt a little vindication because now they felt what it was like to be hated and looked down upon.

W.T. Alright, if someone were to sit a gay student at a Catholic school next to you right now, what would you say to this kid?

Pat: (pause) I really don’t even know what I would say to them. See, I never really had someone say this to me.

W.T. What would you want them to say to you?

Pat: I would want them to say that God doesn’t hate you. And just because someone tells you that he does, it’s not necessarily true. I would also tell them not to believe everything they hear. Question everything with a good amount of skepticism. Questioning authority is a good thing. That no matter what you will still be loved in some capacity. And it doesn’t matter if one person doesn’t like you and they cast you away for that, that’s their loss, not yours. Take it with stride and just keep going.

W.T. Is there anything else you would like to let people know about being gay and religious?

Pat: I guess I’m just very sad that my childhood educators caused me to hate myself for such a long period of time. They’re supposed to be the foundation of the rest of your life and they’re supposed to be the ones who instill self worth and happiness and independence on your own. At that age it’s really not even just about learning things, but about yourself as well. Learning how to be a functioning person and learning how to love yourself. And they didn’t do a good job of that. That really makes me sad to know that for those 8 years they really weren’t doing their job.

Ted went to St. James between first and 8th grade. It was a co-ed Catholic school in Glen Ellen, the city with the most churches per square mile in the U.S. He’s 22 and still fits in his 8th grade gym uniform (which he wore for the interview).

W.T. Really, the most churches per square mile in the United States?

Ted: Yeah, that’s our claim to fame. In the United States. It’s digusting. It’s conservative.

W.T. What I’d like to start with is sex education. Did you school have any?

Ted: Yes. 5th grade. It was only like a 5 class thing on Tuesdays … it was short. I had known everything though because I have an older sister and she told me everything when she went through it.

W.T. Alright, so what’d they teach you?

Ted: They went through the reasons for sex. Procreation. So, Catholic reasons for sex. And most of it was about changes as you grow. Like deodorant, using that. The basics of what puberty is gonna do, getting high, changes in musculature.

W.T. What’d they say about relationships?

Ted: They didn’t talk about relationships, homosexuality, masturbation. They didn’t talk about safe sex. No contraception, obviously, ‘cause Catholics are pretty well known for not believing in it. Yeah, they tend to reproduce.

W.T. And so you were in school through the sacrament of confirmation.

Ted: Yeah, I mean, I still go to church occasionally. It built for me a pretty firm belief in a higher power, and it’s easy to revert back to that when I am frustrated or want to talk or whatever. I do believe in the paternal father figure, as an overriding deity. I still identify as Catholic. Last year I was my little sister’s confirmation sponsor.

W.T. How’d you like public school in comparison to public school? You went to public school for high school, right?

Ted: Well, I hated CCD kids so much. Public school jackasses. But really I like public school better than private school. I couldn’t stand it. Usually they have really small classes. It was the same 33 people for 8 years of my life. I couldn’t wait to get to high school, which was 2,200 people.

W.T. How do you feel overall about your experience at Catholic school?

Ted: It was sheltered, beyond belief. It was horrible. We were so ridiculously unknowledgeable about the world. We weren’t allowed to date in 7th grade. We got yelled at by the principal for that. She came into our classroom and she’s like, “We heard that you guys went on a double date. That’s done!” We got yelled at for some kid bringing a condom to school. That was one of my friends. It altered how I decided to be in high school. It made me rebel a lot more. I didn’t masturbate until I got to high school and I’m pretty sure I’m hypersexual now. Ask either of the guys I’ve dated.

W.T. And you think that going to Catholic school and being repressed in that area is the reason for that?

Ted: Yeah, that’s my opinion. ‘Cause my sister’s kinda similar and I bet my younger sisters will be the same way.

W.T. So you did second guess your sexuality at points? Thinking of it as a phase?

Ted: Yeah, I would never say that I thought I was straight. I always knew I liked guys, but I thought there’s ways to work around that. Like being one of those husbands who never touches his wife! I like girls a lot, physically, and I’ve never had a problem fooling around with girls.

W.T. Did you ever have any relationships with women?

Ted: Yeah, 2 in high school. One was one month, the other was four. The second one ended when I first fooled around with a guy. Not right away though. It was horrible! I was dating this girl Dianne for 3 months, and then I fooled around with the first guy. I felt horrible so I told her. I went to her work and I had asked her to prom, on one of those billboard signs, ya know? And then I was supposed to pick her up, and I fell asleep and she came and I was like, “Yeah, we have to talk.” And at first she was crying happy, like, “I can’t believe you asked me to the –“ and I was like, “Yeah … I cheated on you.” And you see the tears start falling, and then I was like, “Yeah … with a guy.” And then! Eugh, we sat there for two hours. And we continued dating for another month and we went to prom, too. Worst prom of my life. She was gonna come to U of I because she thought we were going to get back together. I was like, “No, you don’t understand.”

W.T. What would you consider immoral sex?

Ted: See, I don’t know. I don’t believe there’s any categorical imperatives for sexuality. If it works for you … like if you can have a healthy relationship with more than one person then by all means. For me, I wouldn’t be able to do it. And sex with a younger person, if it’s a relationship you can do … that’s great on both parts. I probably couldn’t have sexual relations with like a 13 year old. But then again, I’m not from Kentucky.

W.T. My roommate actually just went to Kentucky. He’s hunting fossils. Next big topic. Gay marriage. How do you feel about it?

Ted: Um, I don’t see why it’s a topic. I think it should be abolished from a state standpoint. It should just be a religious thing. That’s why I think the solution is. But a lot of people won’t go for it, especially heterosexuals.

W.T. So instead of allowing special rights, special rights being tax breaks, etc., you think that should be abolished from all marriages and unions? Or do you want a separation from a marriage in the Church and a union under the State?

Ted: Yeah, that’s what I think would be the best option. Separation from what a religious marriage is and what a union is, in the state sense. But since that’s probably not gonna happen I’m all for gay marriage. I don’t think I’d ever picket for it or anything.

W.T. Do you ever see yourself getting married or having a union?

Ted: Yeah.

W.T. Which would you rather have, as a Catholic?

Ted: I don’t really care. As long as it’s something that’s legal and agreed upon by me and whoever I’m with. I want the same rights.

W.T. And how do you feel about the Bible?

Ted: I want to quote Foxxy Love on this, “It’s not a strict set of rules, but a guide to help you define your personal relationship with the lord.” It’s written … it’s not perfect. I got in a fight the other day with a girl from Cru about this, actually. Nothing perfect can come from something imperfect, and since it’s written by man…. It may be divinely inspired but it’s so open to misinterpretation. And it was also written with rules that made sense at the time but obviously we’ve progressed since then. Like … we wear buttons now. Clothes of more than one fabric.

W.T. Yeah, who knew! So comfy.

Ted: No joke! To quote some parts of the Bible and then ignore others is just ridiculous. But I’m also not a fan of organized religion. I believe in a lot of the doctrine and think it’s a good guideline to live life by, but I’m not a fan of the pope, I’m not a fan of mass. It’s very cultish. It’s nice. It’s stable. I was actually a youth leader in high school. I led my youth group and I went to Cru for a semester here.

W.T. What was that like?

Ted: It was cool. It’s kind of like mass and you sit around, sing songs and pray. But the people are very hypocritical, like in so many organized religions. There are a few genuinely good people. I liked youth group because it was more about being with your friends and you go for guidelines. And you play volleyball. They intertwined religious doctrine but it wouldn’t be hardcore. Most of the churches I have been with have been pretty liberal.

W.T. Your relationship with your family now, what’s it like?

Ted: They don’t care. I came out to my mom first. And she was upset for like 6 months, but she got over it. And my older sister, she was the one I was most scared to come out to. She would be like, “If you ever turned out gay I’m gonna cut off your balls and shove em down your throat.” It was horrible growing up! And I was terrified to come out and she was like, “Why didn’t you tell me?” She’s hilarious.

W.T. How did the priest scandal affect your view on homosexuality?

Ted: It’s a sad scenario, but I can see why it happened. People are repressed, they don’t want to get married, and so they figure that’ll help, but it doesn’t.

W.T. Do you think Catholic priests should be able to have relationships?

Ted: It’s a conflicting subject. They’re supposed to be studying God and it’s kind of hard to do that when you’ve got a family. To the extent that you go to a priest for religious guidance, I think it’d be really hard. But there’s got to be an outlet somewhere. As humans, we’re not meant to be asexual.

W.T. How has Catholic school impacted your view on relationships?

Ted: I’ve only been in two relationships. They were both long-term, for me at least. One was a year and a half, the other was 2 years. I don’t casually date. I think it’s a bit ridiculous. In both instances, I was dating somebody I thought I could see spending the rest of my life with. Go hard or go home is my philosophy. Hookups are fine, but if I can help it I don’t want to date someone for just 3 months. I believe in either long-term relationships or one-night stands. And I feel that a lot of that has a lot to do with the Catholic mindset. You’re supposed to find someone that you can be with forever.

W.T. Any other relationship tidbits?

Ted: Every time I’ve dated, that person’s become my best friend. My best buddy. And I fell like that’s the most important part of a relationship; the sex does fade from what it originally was. Maybe it doesn’t die completely, but you need somebody that you can get along with. What I liked about my last relationship was that we contrasted each other really well. We thought differently but had similar viewpoints. Both moderately conservative. I’m a bit more liberal. He’s in the fine and applied arts, and I’m in research. I like that.

W.T. Well we’re almost done here, but is there anything else you’d like to touch on before I go to my last question?

Ted: I think Catholic school jipped me. I mean, you started dating when you were like 13, right?

W.T. 14. It was the end of 8th grade.

Ted: Yeah, well I got jipped from that experience. Everything was so repressed. I didn’t even date girls in middle school. Like, the public middle school by us was doing those lipstick parties, ya know? With the different lipstick colors and they would be servicing guys and hopefully you’d have a rainbow on your dick by the time the party was over. People were doing that and at our school we’d be watching movies and baking cookies. But yeah, I guess the public schools by us were a bit out of control.

W.T. Alright, last question. If some gay kid from a Catholic school were plopped down next to you right now, what advice would you have for him?

Ted: Well, to Catholic students in general, think for yourself. Make sure everything makes sense to you instead of just believing doctrine. Yes they’re good guidelines and stuff but ultimately you have to make your own decisions. One of the ways I justify homosexuality in my life, was that God can’t possibly hate people for loving others. It can’t be that wrong if, well, for me, if you’re in a loving healthy monogamous relationship that isn’t abusive. Accept yourself and be truthful.

AJ is a junior at UIUC. AJ went to Brother Rice High School, a same-sex Catholic school on the south side of Chicago.

W.T. What was sex ed like at Brother Rice?

AJ: Sex education? Well we didn’t get sex ed. Just what you learned in between the lockers I guess.

W.T. Did they talk about sexuality in any other classes?

AJ: Religious classes yeah. My high school is very accepting of everybody though. There were people that were out in my high school.

W.T. Were there any groups for that sort of thing? Like a GSA?

AJ: No, haha, it’s still the south side.

W.T. Did anyone seem to have a problem with it?

AJ: Well, I wasn’t out in high school. But no, no one had a problem with the other guys who were. I mean people threw around the word “gay” a lot but they didn’t mean it in a derogatory sense. Or direct at any of the gay people. It’s just the way south siders were brought up.

W.T. Tell me more about sexuality being discussed in your religion classes.

AJ: Oh god, well it depends on who your teacher was. Luckily my teacher was really cool. He was a brother actually. We had to do a group project once and we did it on gay marriage. We got an A+ on it. He loved it. Yeah, he never really went into detail on what he thought about gay people but you could tell he was cool with everybody.

W.T. What some people have been telling me is that it’s okay to be gay, but it’s not okay to actually take part in homosexual acts. Were you raised with a specific view on that?

AJ: I guess you could say that. People would know but they don’t want to see it. The idea of “keep it away from me.” But I feel if I can watch you make out in a bar with some chick, why can’t I do the same thing with a guy? I think people are afraid of stereotypes. My friend is okay with having a gay friend, but he’s not okay with seeing it. I don’t know why. I think they’re just afraid of being associated with promiscuity. They think all gay guys are promiscuous. Or they’re afraid of being thought of as gay themselves. They secretly do have some judgments.

W.T. And you’re cool with your friends feeling like that?

AJ: Well, I don’t know. At the beginning when I came out I was cool with it because I didn’t want people to think of me as this snobby kid saying “you can’t do this anymore or that anymore.” Now it pisses me off a little bit. I’m not gonna say anything about it but inside I’m thinking, “Shut the fuck up.”

W.T. You mentioned gay marriage earlier. How do you feel about that?

AJ: Thumbs up. Two thumbs up. Can’t wait. I want it now. I don’t want to get married now but I want the rights now.

W.T. Ok, that’s the thing, do you want the rights or do you actually want to be married in a church?

AJ: I think it’s a matter of being able to get married in the church. I hear you can get married in some Lutheran churches. In my future I don’t see myself getting married in a church. I would love to; I think church weddings are awesome. I don’t want to get married in a banquet hall!

W.T. A lot of people have a problem with gay marriage because a lot of gays want not only the rights that come with marriage, but the word marriage. Do you think we should have a separation there?

AJ: People are still easing up to the fact that gay marriage is happening now. I think having the right by itself is what we need now. We don’t need the word marriage in there now. It’s whatever you make it really. Calling it marriage now is pushing it a little too far. People are already pissed at us.

W.T. You’re still religious?

AJ: No.

W.T. No? But you want to get married in a church.

AJ: Well no, it depends where the church is at by that time. I would like to be religious, but in the Catholic Church … it’s just not … it’s two opposing forces.

W.T. Is that the one main issue you have with Catholicism?

AJ: There’s issues. I have so many problems with the Catholic Church. With the priests, with views on abortion. I think they’re just stuck in the medieval times. They’re afraid of change. It’s like in Happy Feet.

W.T. I haven’t seen it.

AJ: Oh god, you should. The main penguin who dances … they hate him because he can’t sing but he can dance. The elder penguins are afraid that dancing will bring about change in the way the penguins … it’ll mess up the balance. They run out of fish and they blame it on him. But in the end they all start dancing. Haha, it’s very politically driven. You should see it.

W.T. It kind of sounds like Footloose or something. But you mentioned priests. What’s wrong with priests?

AJ: Oh god, what isn’t wrong with priests? No, I shouldn’t say that, that’s horrible. There’s a lot of good priests out there. A lot of accepting priests. But you know on the south side you get your screwups. There was a priest at my school who didn’t pay his hooker or something downtown, and the pimp came and beat him up in our school parking lot. And then you get the ones who are a little bit too promiscuous with their students.

W.T. How did that whole priest scandal affect your views on the Catholic Church and on homosexuality? Because here you have someone preaching to you that the gay lifestyle is wrong, and then they’re partaking in it themselves to a point that involves pederasty…

AJ: Well, you have to blame it on the individual person who does it. I think part of the problem is when they outlawed marriage for priests. I mean can you imagine celibacy?

W.T. No. No I could not. That would be horrible.

AJ: That’s why I will not be a priest.

W.T. Do you know of any churches that are accepting?

AJ: No. I’m from the south side. I heard there may be some on the north side somewhere.

W.T. Do you have any interest in pursuing something like that?

AJ: I don’t consider myself not religious, I definitely believe in something. I don’t know what that is and I choose not to put a label on it. But no I can’t see myself going into a catholic church and sitting in one of the pews with everybody else and feeling comfortable. I’d feel like everybody’s staring at me. There’s the gay one!

W.T. You weren’t out in high school. So did you date any girls in high school?

AJ: In high school no. In grade school yeah. Like when you saw a person once a week and you would give them a hug and that’s considered dating.

W.T. Whoa. Hot stuff.

AJ: Yeah. I was a ladies man. But in high school no. I just had no connection with women. They all just wanted to be my friend! The girls I was friends with in high school I was friends with since 3rd grade. We were a very close group of people so we never really had newbies coming in either.

W.T. Did anyone find it strange that you weren’t dating anyone?

AJ: My friends never suspected it. I would make up girlfriends for my parents just so they would stop asking me when I’m going to bring someone to a family party. I would tell them, “Oh she’s just not comfortable with meeting the family.” Oh god … the lies…haha.

W.T. Can you tell me about your parents?

AJ: My mom is cool with it now. She didn’t believe me until she found out I was actually in a relationship with a guy. That was the proof. My dad kind of refuses to believe it. Still. He’s your typical hardworking middle America republican. Not even republican, but he’s always been traditional.

W.T. And siblings?

AJ: I have an older brother and sister. And they know. My sister didn’t believe me when I told her. She told me I didn’t have a gay bone in my body. I totally could have put a pun in there. My brother is kind of funny about it. My sister told my brother, and he called me and was like, “So you make out with boys? Alright….” He’s one of those “not around me” guys, but I have a feeling he’ll warm up to it.

W.T. THE BIBLE. How do you feel about the Bible?

AJ: People try to interpret it so literally. It pisses me off. I took an intro to Catholicism class last year and the teacher was trying to convince us that Adam and Eve were real people.

W.T. That’s so much inbreeding, if that’s true. So much. How do you think the Bible should be read?

AJ: As a story to relate to. Nothing more nothing less. The story is meant to be there to teach you something. It’s not to tell you how to act and behave. It’s there to guide you.

W.T. Sexual deviancy. How would you define that?

AJ: I don’t consider any sex to be “bad.” There are some things I wouldn’t do. Like I would never tie people up or anything. I’m not a kinky person. But I don’t consider that wrong. It’s just not my forte.

W.T. What about polygamy?

AJ: I don’t think that would be wrong, but who would want that? That would bring so much drama and confusion. If you can do it, go for it. But I wouldn’t be able to deal with it. Especially if there’s a woman involved.

W.T. Bestiality?

AJ: If you’re having sex with animals or children, you need to see somebody. You’re a very lonely person.

W.T. You see yourself having a family. How do you plan to go about that?

AJ: A bunch of my friends that are women said they would gladly have one of my children.

W.T. Honestly?

AJ: Yeah. One for sure. But I don’t know if I would want to do that because then she would be involved. Like, I would want the kid and for her to leave the kid alone so I can raise it with whomever I’m with. I mean … I want to keep the bloodline going. Maybe do a surrogate or somethin’. Maybe I’ll just have a bunch of my girlfriends donate their eggs and I could use a surrogate. I’ll just pick randomly so they don’t know.

W.T. You should get a tshirt.

AJ: Haha, yeah, “Accepting egg donations.”

W.T. Only slightly creepy. Is there anyone who doesn’t know?

AJ: All my closest friends know. My family knows. My grandma knows, grandpa doesn’t. He’s just crazy. I’d probably get the shotgun pulled out on me, haha.

W.T. There’s one more question I want to ask. If you were to come across a high school student in a catholic high school today, what advice would you have for him?

AJ: I’d probably tell him to wait ‘til college to come out. School you won’t have a problem with, but at home you’re with your family 24/7. I told my parents over the phone and waited a week before going home. It gave them some time to get used to it. But I would say that you should tell one of your close friends in high school. It’s such a relief.

W.T. What if they want to date someone?

AJ: I waited and it was hell. But if you’re willing to do it and you can hide it from people, go for it. But it’s a struggle. I wouldn’t be able to do it. If your friends all found out, your family would find out. All your friends have siblings, word spreads like wildfire.

W.T. Anything else you want to touch on in relation to sexuality and spirituality?

AJ: If you have the balls …. if you’re strong enough in your faith and you can be gay, that’s amazing and I don’t know how you do it. But I don’t think it’s a real possibility to be a religious gay person in today’s society. I say it’ll be 10 more years. America just isn’t ready for us.

When I first sought out to interview gay guys who went to Catholic schools, my main goal was to find a relationship between spirituality and sexuality. I wanted to see if it was possible for a gay guy to remain Catholic or a Catholic to carry on homosexual relationships. I interviewed five different guys: Luke, AJ, Matt, Ted, and Pat. Their stories, of course, do not represent the entire gay community or the entire Christian community, but they do provide a quick glance into the lives of five different guys who have had very different experiences. Some of them have come to the same ultimate conclusion and some have not. I’ll be using aliases for some of the guys, but I’m not going to let you know which ones. That makes it fun, right?

These are all going to be really long. For the most part I have transcribed the entire interview, just because a) I love this voice recorded I bought and b) I haven’t written in so long that I feel I should really tell the entire story. So I’m sorry if it takes you longer than 5 minutes to read, but hopefully you’ll find it worth it.

Let’s just dive right into it, shall we?

Luke

Luke is a student at U of I – Springfield. Luke grew up in a more liberal household, and so we’ll start with him and slowly work our way through guys raised in more conservative households. Today Luke considers himself agnostic, borderline atheist. This is his interview.

With Tongue: Borderline atheist, huh? What’s keeping you from crossing the border?

Luke: There’s something so definite in declaring yourself atheist. I just don’t think I can ever know what lies ahead, in any sense. I sometimes think that atheists can be more discriminated against than a lot of other groups in the US. My parents are lapsed Catholics and when they had a falling out with the church when I was in about 7th or 8th grade they lost friends, we had to sometimes lie to family members about going to church. Being a closeted atheist can almost be as scary as being a closeted gay depending on your circle of friends.

W.T. Alright, and you went to Catholic school, yes?

Luke: I started in 3rd grade and graduated from a catholic high school. 3rd through 8th was the same grade school, then all the catholic schools are funneled into the only high school in town.

W.T. Can you tell me which school or would you like to keep that anonymous?

Luke: Ehh id rather not. I still haven’t come out to a lot of people in high school and I’d hate for them to find out online. I was the only Luke: in my class. It wouldn’t take a rocket scientist.

W.T. Alright, no problem. Now were these schools co-ed?

Luke: Yes

W.T. What was sex education like?

Luke: Hahaha, well in grade school they didn’t want to deal with it in the school so we all got sent to the health center, but it was mostly like “your changing body and you” type stuff. In high school “health class” was taught by a male coach, and never mentioned contraceptives, only natural family planning. Anyone pro-choice was eligible for expulsion, if that gives you some idea of the climate.

W.T. Wow, okay, so abortion was bad and contraceptives weren’t mentioned. How about homosexuality?

Luke: Never discussed, unless it was brought up, which never happened in health class. Sometimes it was talked about in religion class. Basically, it wasn’t a sin to be gay, but it was a sin to practice it, think about practicing it, if you were gay, they asked you to remain celibate.

W.T. So what did you think about that?

Luke: Well it’s highly idealistic and contradictory.

W.T. You thought this even when you were in high school? What would you say was the opinion of your peers?

Luke: Well, speaking for my peers, it was that gays were punchlines, nothing more. My parents have always been pretty liberal and so I grew up in a place that was accepting but a lot of the families at church were not. If a gay couple had showed up at mass, I’m pretty sure they would’ve been booed out. That never happened though.

W.T. Would you say any of this influenced your agnosticism?

Luke: Of course, and I probably didn’t even realize it at the time since my own “gayness” was so repressed. I stopped considering myself catholic or even religious in my junior year.

W.T. Ah, ok, and when did you start realizing you were gay?

Luke: I didn’t admit it to myself until about a year and a half ago. But I had always been attracted to men ever since puberty. I had a bad experience in grade school. Getting called fag, apparently they knew even before I did. Which probably set the whole coming out thing way in the back of my mind.

W.T. So even the good Catholic school children called each other fags

Luke: Of course, children are children who turn into like-minded adults

W.T. You didn’t come out until college and you’re still not out to friends from high school?

Luke: Two of them, yes. But for the most part I really only keep in contact with a handful of friends from high school and I just haven’t gotten around to telling them yet. They’re probably better off not knowing. I don’t think it would further our friendship, and it might even be too personal. I don’t feel like it’s pertinent information. I’m single now, if I was in a relationship I would feel like it would be necessary. That’s how I came out to my parents and it seemed easier. You know like “Hey I’m seeing someone now, his name is “Blank.”

W.T. How did they react to it?
Luke: Stunned exasperation, but they were quick to calm down and just asked lots of questions

W.T. What was their prime concern, would you say?

Luke: They ended it with the “we just want you to be careful”…so my health basically. My parents have been out of the church for quite some time now. They consider themselves spiritual now and have a group of lapsed Catholics over to their house once a month to talk about philosophy, theology.

W.T. So back to your high school days, did you ever date girls?

Luke: Yes, I had a girlfriend my freshman and sophomore year, she went to a public high school though. It was boring. I ended it out of sheer boredom. Not to mention how are you supposed to have a relationship when neither person can drive?

W.T. Bicycles! Go green! Alright, you were simply bored. What was going on with your homosexual thoughts?

Luke: I wouldn’t acknowledge them, hoping they’d go away. Straight life was more appealing. You know, nuclear family, white picket fence, steady job, basically what society and the media feed you from birth

W.T. And that’s not what you see in your future anymore?

Luke: Please no, I would go insane if I was forced into that. As of now, I have no relational expectations. I’m taking life as it comes.

W.T. When it comes to Catholic school, it doesn’t seem it affected how you live your life in terms of following Christian doctrine. Would you say that’s true, or would you say there are still some morals/values that you follow?

Luke: I mean there’s still the basics that Catholics are supposed to follow, the golden rule, care for those less fortunate. Even though I’m not religious at all, I still do community service and volunteer work. I started doing to fulfill a graduation requirement for high school and I continue because I feel it’s the right thing to do.

W.T. How about Catholic rules when it comes to sex? What do you consider sexual deviance?

Luke: While I was in high school, anything beyond holding hands and kissing. Now, I don’t think the term “sexual deviance” is in my vocabulary unless I’m making fun of religious fundamentalists, and even then I usually choose “abomination.”

W.T. Well if things like homosexual acts or premarital sex aren’t deviant, what about things like polygamy or bestiality?

Luke: Jeez, I would feel like a hypocrite condemning someone for their own sexual preferences. I would say I would be more accepting of polygamy than bestiality or pedophilia just because they are consenting adults. I guess I don’t test my own opinions on bestiality very often.

W.T. How do you feel about gay marriage?

Luke: In full support. I can’t wait until Illinois passes it. Hopefully next session the civil union bill will make it through the legislature. I’m not big on the whole “it has to be identical to straight marriage,” as long as I’m still getting the same rights and privileges as a straight couple I don’t care what it’s called.

W.T. And overall, how do you feel about your experience at Catholic school?

Luke: I look at it like an atheist factory. I’m glad I went through it in the fact that I’m more grounded in my own beliefs now. Kind of the, “I know I don’t want that, so what do I want?” mentality. It helped me think outside of my comfort zone, which was catholic doctrine. So spiritually it helped. In other ways it probably inhibited a lot of personal growth, sexually, socially. Just the fact that differing viewpoints other than Catholic doctrine pigeonholes teens into something they may not want. Had I been in a more open and accepting environment I probably would’ve come out earlier. From what I know, there no out gay students at my high school of over 800 students

W.T. One more question: if you were to give any advice to kids currently in Catholic school who are coming out to themselves and realizing they’re gay/bi/whatever what would it be?

Luke: I’m pretty pessimistic when it comes to coming out in catholic high school. I would say, only tell those you trust. And to just wait, life gets so so so much better after that 4 years is over. I hated my high school. That’s just from my own personal experience, some teens may be able to come to grips in a terrible environment, but they’re going to have to be incredibly strong-willed to do so.