I remember learning at a very young age that one should treat women with respect, especially old women. I’m not sure if it was my dad or if it was TV that taught me that it’s always a good idea to open doors and to pull out chairs. I don’t take many women out on dates, so the pulling out chairs thing doesn’t happen that often unless it’s for my mom or nana or someone of the like. However, I do make a point to open doors for women, whether I know them or not. I cannot count the number of times I have been stuck holding a door open because for some reason a flock of women all decide to leave or enter a building at the exact same time.
Many women like to be treated like princesses. Not all, not most, but many do indeed enjoy this. Maybe actual princesses get a lot more than a chair pulled out for them and a door held open, but I think you can see where I am going with this. In heterosexual dates, it tends to be assumed (at least from what I have gathered, do correct me if I’m wrong) that the guy will pick up the check. It is the guy’s responsibility to take the woman on a date that she will enjoy. He must choose the classy restaurant, open the door to the car, open the door to the restaurant, pick up the check, open the door again, and again, etc. etc. Women love this shit and if it doesn’t happen on a date, the guy is thought of as a total douche who doesn’t know how to “treat a lady.”
Now, here’s my problem: why do women need these things? Why do girls need to be treated with more respect than guys? I understand in terms of a date that a guy is trying to seduce her and whatnot, but these rules apply outside of the dating world as well. One should ALWAYS hold the door open for the female, not just when he’s trying to score points. Why is it men holding doors for women, and not the other way around? Personally, I see that as a woman presenting herself as indeed the weaker sex. By necessitating special treatment because she’s a woman, she is telling the man that she is indeed a prize to be won.
Women want equal rights. They want the right to vote and the right to equal education and the right to make a dollar for every dollar a man makes, not just the 75 cents (which, if I heard correctly, is the current statistic). Why, then, are men the only ones who are required to sign up for the draft? I hardly see this as equal rights. If a woman wants to have equal rights, she too should need to die for her country (which, by the way, I think is absolute bullshit and am thankful for the ability to “tell” of the Don’t Ask Don’t Tell policy, but that’s another issue entirely). And here in Austria, only men are required to work for their army for a minimum of 6 months (or Zivildienst for a minimum of 9 months). Austrian women aren’t required to do either. It seems the princess rules are international. I also think that these rules involving opening doors and pulling out chairs are ridiculous because at one moment she wants to be treated like a princess and the next she wants to be treated as an equal.
Ah, but that’s the thing, she wants to be a Princess. She doesn’t want to be an ordinary woman; she wants to be a woman above men. A princess, of course, has more power than a mere peasant. What women want, in my eyes, is not equal rights, rather, they want more rights than men. They want equal pay but they don’t want to have to fight for their country. They want the man to pay for their meal. And they get it. They want the man to put up the Christmas lights on the house and to get that heavy box out of the attic. They just don’t have the dollar. I feel I should remind you that I’m not describing ALL women, just some of them.
I know that if a woman reads this she’ll more than likely say it’s not true, that she too would die for her country. Let me take a quick walk down memory lane. Remember high school gym class? Remember swimming? I always found it interesting how many girls seemed to get their period several times a month and would coincidentally no longer be required to swim. Seems like an abuse of power to me, and it seems that if these girls are willing to fake a period to get out of swimming, they’re not exactly going to be rushing to the front lines to fight for the U.S. The big problem with this is that in order to get these special rights, they need to make you feel sorry for them, and perhaps it is for this reason that they aren’t really getting the princess respect that they feel they deserve.
I’m not going to stop opening doors for women. For some reason, I do believe they deserve to have the door opened for them. I don’t know if it’s just through constant societal training or if I believe it really is the right thing to do. I don’t like the argument that it has to do with a woman giving me birth, because while that’s true, and I am glad that my mom did, I only see that as a reason to give respect to my mom. It doesn’t really matter to me if other girls choose to get knocked up and give birth. That’s their choice, or at least for the time being, right republicans? All I know is that I’m a slave to the system of giving women what could potentially be seen as “extra” respect, even if writing this seems to actually disrespect them. Maybe that’s what it really means to be a gentlemen.
One more note. NOT ALL WOMEN ARE LIKE THIS. Samantha from Sex & the City is my ideal woman. I could explain why, but if you know the show, you know Samantha and you don’t need me to explain. If you don’t watch the show, you need to. But the point is that Samantha isn’t fictional. What inspired me to write this article was a conversation in which I realized one of my girlfriends really doesn’t play the princess card (well, at least without realizing she’s doing it). This girl is incredibly intelligent, beautiful, athletic and a real catch, I’d say, but she isn’t going to conform to societal norms. She gives it her all. I respect that. This actually goes for all people, not just women. If the person doesn’t expect to just have life handed to them, and they work hard and aren’t going out and getting drunk every night or whathaveyou, I respect them. If they are going out all the time and not actually putting forth any effort, then no, I don’t have respect for them. I have seen this a lot in exchange students, they either work hard and get a lot out of their time in another country, or they’re lazy and just expect to have a good time. That’s great and fun, but I have no respect for people like that.
Now that I think about, my ideal women are always strong women who actually just seem to fit the qualities that are normally given to a man: Lara Croft, Lola from Run Lola Run, Marla from Fight Club, The Bride in Kill Bill. These are women I can actually imagine doing something manual. These are girls I can see breaking a sweat. These are women who aren’t going to wait for a man to open the door. I dig it.
from http://www.passiveaggressivenotes.com/
P.S. I think it is important to note that most (if not all) of my female friends are girls that I can imagine sweating, and I’m not just saying that to save my balls. Like I said, if they don’t sweat, it’s much too hard to respect them, and if I can’t respect them, how can I call them my friend?
Liam Reed: 1987 model, runs fairly well, few dents, starts in cold weather, no baggage, loves flea markets and canned soup. Send all hate mail, love mail, and sexual advances to withtongue@gmail.com
Comments
Megan (Megan) says:
(Posted June 1st, 2008 at 8:30 am)
Liam,
What a wonderful article!….you’ve perfectly captured the woman who wants to have her cake and eat it too….but without the fat, calories, cholesterol, and high fructose corn syrup. While gender differences and discrimination will forever be present…for better or worse…I completely agree with your “women don’t want equal, they want more,” theory. But maybe, this theory can be rooted in the little princess inside of us whispering in our ear that, as royal princesses, we are simply entitled to more, more, and whatever else we want more of. In that case, while society tells you open the door for a girl, society is all the while telling us that we should be granted that luxury anyway along with any other act of chivalry your can muster up in those 5 seconds of stranger to stranger contact. Continuing with this royal metaphor….as princesses I fear the female race will always bear the seductive, heart wrenching “pout” and demand the inconceivable (equal opportunity employment but not with the US armed forces, one of the largest employers….wtf?) because at the end of the day, we still bow to the king. Maybe our demands and expectations are merely a silent, on-going temper tantrum. We may not have the throne, the papacy, the presidency (subject to change) or any other superior title traditionally give to men. But damnit we’ll have every door open from here to the ends of the earth.
tara (tara) says:
(Posted June 1st, 2008 at 11:33 am)
bill, youve just let yourself into a girls mind is what you did. be prepared to be totally confused. we dont know what we want.
at work, i am like i a guy becuase i do all of the grunge work, last night i had to mop and sweep the back, and then i had to wipe down 40 bus stands. (fucking disgusting) since they havnt been washed in.. well no one has washed them since ive been there so a year. and i did it while the guys racked glasses in the kitchen.
BUT, i had the easier night, becuase i was on head table. i had 18 people to take care of while they other guys had at least 60. my boss usually puts me on head table now, or something easier like close. but i didnt use to always have that. i used to be slipt and far, and i worked with boy and girl bus at the time. now its usually me and 5 other guys, or me and one other girl, and 4 other boys or so. so when its the 2 of us..we still end up with the easier job. and the guys always complain about this, saying how they always have far side and its so much work.. and i cant get them to understand that ive worked there for a year.. im almost going to be a server.. she trusts me to be nice to the bride and groom, plus gaelic has a thing for having their ..nicer looking.. workers to be at head table, or in the window.. or bartending.
but then i cant really believe it myself. maybe jodi does gives me the head because i am the only girl, and she doesnt think it would be fair for me to have to work harder than a guy. and i hate that.. but its true too. i always work more than any one of those guys, i keep the back clean so once we finish racking glasses,we can leave. not saying that they do nothing, but theyre the type of kids you have to ask them to do anything for you. they make it seem like you are asking for a huge favor, even though its in our job description and itll get done faster if everyone just helps out..ive learned to respect a few of them, one i noticed because sometimes he would try to take a heavy tub form me or grab the crate of glasses for me. but i always say i can handle it.
which bring sus back to being totally confused. i want a guy to offer, but i dont want him to actually do nice things for me, its nice to know a guy cares enough about you, as a friend or more, whatever it is, to help you if you need it. but i dont need it, and i dont want it at work because i hate letting them thing i need help. i am independent and i can do just as much as they can.
im not sure where i stand on opening doors and having a guy taking care of the check. id open a door for anyone, and when a guy im hanging out with opens it for me..i almost feel awkward. i kinda give hiim a look, saying you dont have to do that. but then you take a relationship..and i never understand why they guy has to pay. if it is a real relationship, and its not just for sex, there should be more equality in it. or at least every once in a while the girl should take the guy out for a nice dinner, to show she respects him too.
i dont know bill, just look at all of this ive written, it bounces all over the place because for 1, i cant write for shit, and 2 my mind wanders to so many different points, i dont even understand myself. i dont know what i want.
i personally love asking a guy out for icecream, my treat.
and i never mean it to try to make myself look better than the guy, i just want to show that we should be equal, girls are given the whole.. you must respect her, open doors, and pay for dinner.. and i am not a big fan.
hm.. well let me know what you think of this
Patrick H (Patrick H) says:
(Posted June 1st, 2008 at 12:31 pm)
I applaud this article, because of its sheer honesty. I should point out, however, that although you do a fine job of illustrating the dilemma of “extra” respect for women, I think it’s important to talk also about the dilemmas faced by women of color (which I know you did not intentionally leave out). I think about my own mother, who has been both the man and woman figure of my life (due to an absentee father/sperm donor), and who has been through a heck of a lot and has had to do all the things a man would normally do. Now, to her discredit, if there were a man in her life, she probably wouldn’t have done as much as she did after bringing four children in a U-Haul with a Ford attached to the rear of the van from Greenville, Mississippi.
I guess though my main point is that I think some women have learned to prove themselves tough even amidst the heteronormative traditions that you discussed above and certainly amidst the ridiculously prejudiced climate that exists in this country. We should definitely give them credit for giving women the ability to see that they can make it on their own and be independent and non-conformist.
Kevin McLoughlin (Kevin McLoughlin) says:
(Posted June 1st, 2008 at 1:18 pm)
Long live Samantha! Were you thinking of thing ring scene from the movie? Because I proceeded to embarrass everyone around me for cheering out loud when she said… what she did (trying to avoid spoiling it for anyone else).
I unfortunately returned ‘Sexual Politics’ to the library, but I will try to paraphrase a quote from it here: “Chivalrous intent should always be questioned.” This book, a seminal text of 70’s feminism, has an excellent analysis of the history of chivalry, particularly its resurgence in the 19th century. Under this code, women had (and have) essentially two roles: the first was the ‘princess’ role as you described, the other was far more in line with Tara’s description of her job. Only the highest class could afford to keep their women as ‘princesses’ - cushy positions devoid of creativity, passion, and personal fulfillment. The vast majority of women - and this has been true throughout history - were stuck working longer, harder hours than men in the same position, subject to far worse conditions, insultingly lower wages, and the constant threat of rape and sexual assault from male coworkers or overseers. These women were at the best ignored and the worst treated like aberrations.
People always seem to conflate chivalry with common courtesy - chivalry involves treating women like they’re children, courtesy involves treating them like they’re people. Things like holding the door open shouldn’t be restricted to women… If ANYONE looks like they are struggling carrying something, they should be offered a helping hand. And if someone tries to fight with you, you should hit them if you need to.
I think the biggest problem here is that there isn’t some mass female overmind (as far as we know…) dictating opinions regarding women’s rights. Some of them demand to be treated like princesses, some like queens, and then there’s dozens of gradations between. While there are women who demand both, it seems from my experiences that most lean towards one way or the other. I suppose the problem then is reconciling the two points of view… Any ideas there?
Mary Z. (Mary Z.) says:
(Posted June 1st, 2008 at 4:01 pm)
I went to my sister’s bridal shower today. I opened the door for many many people I did not know because they were holding copious amounts of toasters and crock pots. Some of them had vaginas (though, let’s not get heteronormative here. They could have easily had boy parts underneath their summer skirts). Some did not (once again, this is all assumption).
Honestly, I hold doors open for people all the time. And people hold doors open for me. I don’t really notice what gender they are.
I actually don’t like it if people hold doors open for me when I’m not carrying anything heavy. Because they always hold them when I’m, like, 20 feet away. And I always end up having to scadaddle to the door so they don’t have to keep it open. The way I see it, they just inconvenienced me by holding the door open. Let me go at my own pace!
My mom taught me when I was younger that a man should pay for stuff on dates. I used to subscribe to this too, but not anymore. I’m pretty big on going dutch. In fact, I always wear wooden shoes on a date, just to add to the atmosphere. However, I will say that in today’s ambiguous dating culture (are we hooking up? or just friends? are we dating? huh?), having the man pay creates a clearer distinction that you two are actually on a date. I’ve been out with boys I’ve had mutual attraction for, and we pay for our own stuff, and i leave the date wondering if I was actually out on a date, or just “hanging out” with a cute boy that I’ve also made out with. So while splitting the bill is part of equality, it can also make things really confusing.
I also personally don’t believe that men should be required to sign up for the draft either.
But until the end of time, women will be using their periods to get out of swimming in gym class. DEAL WITH IT LIAM. You boys can use your reproductive organs for peeing while standing up and having consistent orgasms. DON’T TAKE THIS AWAY FROM US.
Pieks (Pieks) says:
(Posted June 1st, 2008 at 10:19 pm)
I hold the door for everyone.. and restraunts on sundays are horrible because if there is a group coming, Ill start to think ‘ eh by the time the door closes, they will be right there and need to open it, so Ill just stay here and hold it ‘ then get stuck there for a bit.
Went to 7-11 2 weeks ago with a girl, and we are pretty open about things, so i said to her ‘ just because i suggested slurpees, i wont be paying for yours’ and we laughed and walked in. When we get up to the counter, i pay first with a $20, and the guy says 2 slurpees and gives me a price. We got into a 2 minute conversation where he scolded me for not treating her. She was laughing the entire time and wouldnt help me out.. so I told the guy we were fighting and i wouldnt waste the money on her.
Another time I went to starbucks with a girl, and I ordered while the gal was making up her mind. The cashier asked will that be all, so i said of course! The girl i was with made up her mind and went to order, but nobody took her order and the cashier totally ignored her thinking that we were going to split my drink. She was suprised when my friend spouted out an order and I got a look.
It happens all the time, and once in a while I will take a girl out for dinner on me.. when im craving something classy but I cant find anyone to join me. I can say I wouldnt call up a guy and treat him to the same thing.
I dont know if this helps but it will give examples of how certain people in certain jobs will expect the guy to foot the bill.
Bob (Bob) says:
(Posted June 2nd, 2008 at 12:21 am)
Ok, I’m tired and intoxicated so I’ll try to keep this moderately under control. It seems to me that the basic issue is the Liam, my good friend of Spanish studies, doesn’t understand the desire of a woman to be treated as an equal and still get her perks a la chivalry. It’s simple self interest, my friend. Any person, given the choice between one advantage and two advantages, will take two. The cognitive dissonance you’re experiencing is only due to the cover story; tradition, and chivalry!
See, Men had all the power, and women and children were literally considered to be property of the man in the family. Men wielded almost all important political stations and dominated the Catholic church, which expressly forbade female clergy. Men ruled over their families legally, but there had to be a reason given for these seemingly similar people (women) to be denied land-owning rights or votes. The reason given, based primarily on a physiological model, was that female humans are weaker and less intelligent than males. They are less capable of outdoor tasks, and should be relegated to the tasks that men do not care to do or that they feel are beneath them.
The shimmer of hope begins to appear when the meme of chivalry comes about. It accepts the previous idea; that woman are inherently weaker than men, and attaches an obligation to men to protect women and perform task it may be too dangerous for them to do.
To be continued.
alex (alex) says:
(Posted June 2nd, 2008 at 3:57 am)
snoozefest. i saw this as a link from a friend. this is not an issue of women vs. men. its an issue of brainwashed white normative society vs. people who can think for themselves. the idea that women should be catered to was made by men who wanted some puss and women who didn’t want to give it up unless they were treated right. i feel like any woman nowadays who can think for themselves would not “expect” to be treated this way. it’s always nice for people to pick up the tab for you or to open the door for you, but it’s not expected unless you fall under the same thinking that people should not put thier elbows on the table. don’t hate women for this, hate people who can’t form their own ideas about a relationship. equal right, equal fights. women are totally amazing capable people, but most people can’t form thier own ideas. i don’t know any women who subscribe to this bullshit at all.
Carl Newman (Carl Newman) says:
(Posted June 2nd, 2008 at 10:50 am)
Firstly, “whathaveyou” ought to be one word, so I applaud you there.
I’m fundamentally a humanist, but I have the same habits you seem to (strong, feminist mother much?). One of the things that I struggle with in my behavior is treading the line between kindness and condescension. I happen to think that all of what people call “chivalry” is founded upon the (erroneous) assumption that women aren’t as capable as men. You’ve got to be nice to women because they can’t handle how rough and tumble the world is. That just seems silly, and practicing it, then, seems like a very subtle form of sexism.
But shouldn’t we just hold that door for everyone? Pick up the check when we can afford to? The problem with that behavior is that it can easily be perceived (and in my case, most often is) as condescension. “If you think I need your help, you’ve got another thing coming” seems to be the reaction sometimes.
I think the problem is that kindness and compassion are morally superior to the bulk of human behavior, and so they are a kind of condescension, when practiced with people who don’t behave the same way. I’ll take out the trash if you’ll do the dishes. It’s just that simple sometimes.
Also, women make 75 cents to the dollar a man makes, except in the 18-24 bracket, where they actually make 1.24 to the dollar I make. We pay a premium for young, perky tits.
Tom Bellino (Tom Bellino) says:
(Posted June 2nd, 2008 at 11:22 am)
This whole thing used to infuriate me when I was little. My parents and preschool teachers and such would school me on how to treat girls and I would always pick up on all the ways girls were given more flexibility in nearly every facet of childhood life. If, by some sick twist of science, it was discovered that all gays really do have a “root,” this would be it. I don’t remember getting in trouble often, but I vividly remember being scolded on many occassions for treating girls like boys. “That’s not how you treat a girl,” I’d be told. I knew even then that it was completely nonsensical and deeply unfair.
I never really got over it until High School, when I began to make real friends and could phase the “princesses” out of my life. But it still comes back to kick me in the ass. Sometimes I’ll get a weird look from girls if I say something vulgar or women will glare at me if I don’t give up my seat on the L. Well, y’know what, too goddamn bad, I say. I treat women like I treat men, almost no exceptions.
Where I start to disagree with you, though, is right after your Samantha commendations. You almost explicitly say that you only like girls who act like stereotypical men. My own personal idea of feminism involves a change in our whole understanding of what is to be prized in our society. If you want to be a macho butch woman, that’s just as worthy as being a super feminine woman in a pink sparkly tube top. If you never want to do physical labor in your life, that’s totally fine, assuming you don’t expect others to just do it for you. Femininity is not grounds for dismissal. Not for men or women.
Think about why gay men are more violently persecuted than lesbians. It’s because they are seen as more feminine and “womanly.” Your idea, and really, any idea at all, of an “ideal woman” upholds and actually adds to this whole misunderstanding of humanity.
Also, I have no idea why you added the whole rant about people who “go out” or drink a lot. What does that have to do with anything else in the post? I’d say I have more respect for women who can have a good time on weekends but get shit done when they have to…that’s typically seen as a manly thing. Think about stereotypical pre-feminism marriages. The man at the bar with his work friends while the woman stayed home and did chores. Why can’t the women be out having a brew with the guys, too?
Carl (Carl) says:
(Posted June 2nd, 2008 at 6:15 pm)
I’d say this offsets the perks of fake periods: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g-IrhRSwF9U
And Tom, I think you hit the nail on the head. We need to stop prescribing gender attributes.
Mike Consalvo (Mike Consalvo) says:
(Posted June 2nd, 2008 at 8:28 pm)
Great post, I’ve always agreed with this thinking. I always hold doors open for everybody, male or female. The funny part is that most guys refuse to allow a guy to hold a door open for them (at least most straight guys) they will insist on letting me walk through first.
Nancy (Nancy) says:
(Posted June 3rd, 2008 at 6:58 pm)
First, I think we need to separate “respect” and “chivalry.” They are not the same thing. I see respect as: my ideas listened to and given the same weight as others at a staff or board meeting; not being interrupted when I’m talking; getting the same pay for the same work; not being called a “bitch” because I’m smarter or have a better idea than someone else. I could go on. But in my opinion, chivalry exists precisely because women are not considered equal, and many men (but not all) do not want women to be considered equal. Men benefit from the status quo. Women work 40+ hours a day, and then come home & still do the majority of housework, child care, etc. If you asked a woman–would you rather have a door opened for you, or would you rather have your partner share _equally_ in housework, i think most women would choose the latter. But I would contend, precisely because that is _not_ happening, women will accept the second best option–chivalry.
You give the example of women not having to sign for the draft. Men are bigger opponents of this than women because that would put women one step closer to equality. Same is true for actual combat situations–I believe women are kept out simply so they do not have the opportunity to do as good, or better, than men in those situations. In fact, in order to get promoted in the military, my understanding is that it is much easier to get promoted if you serve in combat situations, eliminating women from that opportunity of receiving a promotion in the military. It’s a way for men to save face–it reduces the competition.
I believe that part of the problem is that men are taught from day 1 that they are supposed to be better, tougher, stronger, smarter, than women, and if they aren’t, they are a failure. Hence, make sure you don’t give women the opportunity to be equal, so we can continue the status quo.
You also talk about respecting women who give it their all–as I mentioned above, most women do give it their all–and don’t get the same pay, or the same respect, and then have to come home & do even more work than men.
And as far as paying for a meal, someone else posted that whoever can afford it, should pay for it. When my now-husband and I were dating, we split the bill according to our incomes (his was higher than mine, so he paid a higher percentage of the bill).
I could go on, but bottom line–we would all be happier if we did not have such stringent gender roles prescribing what women & men should be like.
Thanks for writing this article.
Liamz (Liamz) says:
(Posted June 4th, 2008 at 10:59 am)
Hey Y’all,
I want to further comment on this but school’s been pretty gross lately. I highly recommend reading The Piano Player (which is what I assume the English title is) by Elfriede Jelinek or checking out the movie. It’s about this woman who is taught at a young age to be the best at piano playing and ends up living with her mother well into the start of her thirties. The book basically shows how sleeping in the same bed as your mom until you’re 30 is probably not a good idea, because it leads to smelling tissues that have been “used” and leads into a very weird sense of voyeurism. This book, aka the bane of my existence, has been keeping me from writing to you about what we all love: The Ladies.
I’ll try to write within the coming days, but until then, just know that I think it’s interesting that more men are commenting (or writing very scary emails) that I am incredibly sexist.
More soon, but until then, I must get back to my horny little piano player.
Veronica (Veronica) says:
(Posted June 4th, 2008 at 10:43 pm)
It seems like you’re living in a world where women have been free to be their own strong individual selves for centuries. It had barely been decades. (In a lot of countries it has yet to be attained) The fact of the matter is that eventually an equilibrium will exist, but women’s rights, much like racial minority rights, are a work in progress to this day. You complain about the draft? Women weren’t allowed to serve in the United States military as anything but nurses until the Vietnam War. They were literally dressing up as men during the Revolutionary and Civil Wars to fight and die (or be wounded as the documented cases reveal) for their country. Talk about a pair of ovaries. And strictly speaking in U.S politics, there is no more draft. Also, if you want to look at foreign countries then look at Israel, a mandatory draft FOR ALL PEOPLE in the Israeli Defense Forces. Yes, in all countries, women are a significantly lower percentage of the armed forces; but give us a century or two and we’ll be killing like men.
I’m more than willing to admit that there are double standards in today’s society about men and women’s roles, but I think it is ridiculous to say that it is only women who use them to their advantage. I won’t start of the slut v. stud argument because we all know and are frustrated with that one. It’s not JUST the women who are keeping themselves out of the military, it is the men who make it an old boys club. (I believe we all saw the Simpson’s episode when little Lisa Simpson tries to fit in at boot camp.) It’s the men who rape their fellow female soldiers out on the field. It’s the man who is afraid his dick will shrivel up and die if a women picks up the tab on a date.
For the record, I like it when men AND women hold the door open for me and I enjoy returning the favor. I also don’t appreciate the description of your favorite women as one like Laura Croft who assumes typical male gendered traits, but with nice tits and a firm slap-able ass. A manly woman does not make a good (or bad) woman.
All of this will change, but the world as a whole, and the United States in particular, is in between times. We’re still figuring out how to implement equality into our everyday lives.
And as for the whole period thing… seriously? You’re going to give us crap because we used the most annoying thing a body can do to a person to get out of a SEMESTER of swimming in HIGH SCHOOL once in a while? Bleed out your ass once a month for forty years and then tell me if you wouldn’t feel entitled to do the same.
P.S- I’m a new reader and I like your blog.
Jamie (Jamie) says:
(Posted June 5th, 2008 at 12:23 am)
This post makes me angry. I know what you’re getting at, but I think it’s far from the norm. Actually, I think the woman you’re talking about is a true rarity. And your disclaimer that not all women are like that really doesn’t make up for what I feel is a fundamentally flawed philosophy.
As far as the “special treatment” you’re talking about goes, most of that can be accounted for by evolutionary psychology. In theory: women will be stuck with their children and need to choose a mate who can provide for said children and will stay with her when they are born. This is an unconscious thought, but the guy picking up the check shows her that he can provide for her and their potential children when she is too pregnant to move or stuck at home with a sick baby. Actually, a lot of “chivalrous” behavior is thought to have these kinds of unconscious thoughts behind them, according to evolutionary psychologists at least.
But what really pisses me off is that you think that “chivalry” is somehow “extra” respect; that women want to be valued above and beyond men. This assumes that women have the same respect that men get daily and opening doors and paying for checks is just icing on the cake – which is frankly, fucking ridiculous. In a world where women can’t go out at night alone without being afraid, where they are constantly made to feel ashamed for expressing sexuality at all – in a world where pretty much the only religion that allows women to be viewed as created in the physical image of god is witchcraft, where men literally are worshiped; in a world where women are called a bitch for speaking their mind, where women still feel guilty for working and not staying home with their kids but STILL do almost 90% of parenting duties on TOP of their jobs; in a world where women are incessantly told that having the perfect ass or stomach or make up or hair is the only way to be accepted AND where that is often true – in this kind of world you feel that men and women are equals???!? Of course women will want you to open the door for them, it’s probably one of the few times they really feel valued by society. If you think the rules of chivalry are a grab for power, I can agree with that; but for a group of people so disempowered by society can you really blame women for taking what little advantages they have? For a man who is in a minority group specifically affected by sexism, I am honestly surprised that you don’t see more of a parallel in discrimination against women and discrimination against gays.
Liamz (Liamz) says:
(Posted June 5th, 2008 at 8:26 am)
Alright, I have a lot to say but I’ll only have time to mention a bit.
First, sorry about the whole religion thing. Personally, I think worshiping anything other than yourself is a bit stupid, so while you have my vote that it’s ridiculous that men are being worshiped as deities, you’re not going to win me over in terms of worshiping women instead.
Also, yes, it does suck that women are afraid of going out alone, but this isn’t helping your argument that women are equal to men. Yes, a woman is probably more likely to be attacked, but why is that? Is it because she’s more likely to have more cash on her? No, it’s probably because the attacker sees the woman as being physically weaker and less likely to fight back. I am not saying it’s “right” that the attacker chooses to attack a woman, but I am saying it makes more sense in terms of physical strength.
It’s interesting that you should mention that women need to have the perfect ass or stomach etc. etc. Do you honestly think it is different for men? Do men not need to shave/groom their facial hair before going out? Do men not need to constantly hit the gym to show that they not only have the discipline to do so, but that they’re strong/not fat as well? Do men not need to wear clothes that are in style? Do men not need to pluck away a unibrow to get a girl/guy? Do guys not need to wear cologne?
We’re all affected by sexism, not just gays and women. If you’re living up to men’s standards but are letting your men not live up to women’s, that’s your own fault. And if the standards don’t matter to you, find someone else who doesn’t care about the standards either. Just a heads up though, if they don’t care about their appearance, they probably won’t care about much else, either.
Oh, and where are you grabbing these statistics? 90% of the parenting duties? Really?
Jamie (Jamie) says:
(Posted June 6th, 2008 at 12:22 am)
I also have a lot to say but not much time.
First, I’d like to address this, “yes, it does suck that women are afraid of going out alone, but this isn’t helping your argument that women are equal to men.” I don’t believe I was arguing that women are equal to men. Allow me to make an analogy. I believe homosexual couples share the same kind of love as heterosexual couples do, and should enjoy the same marital rights; but by no means do I believe that we live in a society where gay couples actually do receive the same martial rights. Much in the same way, I believe women are equal to men; but I certainly don’t believe that we live in a society where women are treated this way. My point in my previous post was to try to make clear that inequity still exists on a grand scale, and not just in terms of monetary compensation.
Also, I don’t believe women should be worshiped instead of men. The religious texts I gravitate towards actually involve spiritual beings that combine men and women, but I digress. Again, I think you are trying to argue that I am placing women above men (or attempting to) and I am trying to argue that in order to place women above men (which, in my opinion would be just as disturbing as our current situation) women would really have to have equal footing to begin with, which I don’t believe exists.
As far as women being attacked goes, men are actually physically attacked more frequently than women, in the way your describing. Despite that fact, (and I can’t site that, its just something my GWS teacher shoved into my memory over and over) I know very few men who are afraid to go out at night. But when women are afraid to walk alone its really not because they think they might get robbed, its because we’ve been told over and over that we could be raped. And despite that women are almost never raped by strangers, its usually their friends, just the fear of joining the 25+% of women who have been raped is enough to usually keep girls inside. I believe rape is a form of terrorism, usually - but not always - targeted at women.
I do think physical standards are much more lax for straight men. I think this because when I turn on the tv almost every straight couple I see involves a very physically fit skinny women and a variety of not outstanding looking guys. I don’t think this really needs examples, but I’ll give some anyway: law and order, house, according to jim, medium, csi, numbers, even cartoons like the simpsons and family guy. Thats not to say that there aren’t a lot of hot guys on tv, or that men don’t feel pressure to look good; but the only shows I can really think of that feature less than model looking women are the office and rosanne - which i think says something. I also think this is reflected in when you look at the gender distribution in eating disorders.
I completely agree that we are all effected by sexism. Perhaps what I was trying to say is that you have probably experienced discrimination based on your sexuality, and I think once you have experienced that it becomes easier to pick up on in other forms.
And as far as the statistic on parenting, that came from a psych class and I’m having trouble the source. If I find it, I will let you know. Admittedly, 90 is probably wrong, all I remember is it being shockingly high.
Rape and eating disorder stats are pretty common, but should you want them:
http://www.pcar.org/about_sa/stats.html
http://www.state.sc.us/dmh/anorexia/statistics.htm
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Katie (Katie) says:
(Posted June 1st, 2008 at 8:13 am)
I’m glad you wrote about this!
I tend to think like that sometimes; I guess it’s just tradition. I am very much for chivalry (which is dying out, sadly). I think that women should be treated with respect (as should men, of course).
I’ll hold the door open for anyone, but I do like it when a guy holds the door open. I wouldn’t stand there and pout and wait for the guy walking five feet behind me to open the door for me. I don’t expect them to give me their seat on the subway or anything - I’m perfectly capable of standing (though again, it is nice if they do so).
Our society is differentiating less than ever between sex roles, but they still exist. Men do get more freedoms than women. People can think of a woman as a “bad mother” if she doesn’t stay home with her children, but they don’t think that about the father. If an accidental pregnancy occurs, 98% of the time it’s the man who takes off (if anyone). If a man sleeps with twenty girls he’s a stud, if a girl sleeps with twenty guys she’s a slut. Even the terms like “slut”, “whore”, and “bitch” are applied almost exclusively to women. I don’t think that women are the “weaker” sex (though scientifically, we technically are). I guess I view them as gentler in a lot of ways - women tend to be the nurturers. My mom stopped teaching when I was born, twenty years ago (she just went back to part-time substitute teaching this year). She raised four kids, did the cooking and cleaning and shopping and taking care of us. Feminists might rail at that, and say she’s one of those women setting feminism back 50 years, but I had a great childhood, and she worked harder raising us than my dad did at his job (he’s the first one to say that, too).
I also think that a man treating a woman with respect like that makes him feel like more of a gentleman. It can be a sort of machismo thing, almost like a “damsel in distress”, though to a lesser extent. I know a lot of guys (though not all, of course) who secretly love to be “called to the rescue” to catch a mouse or squash a bug. Magazines like Cosmo actually give tips that you should do that every once in a while - don’t let him forget you’re feminine (lest he start treating you as “one of the guys”). So every once in a while, go “Oh my god a mouse!” and let him save the day while you go and clamor up onto the bed so it can’t get you.
The relationship I have with the guy I’m seeing now fits pretty nicely into the gentleman/lady roles. It’s not to say that I don’t ever curse in front of him, or have a good time or joke around or act like less than the lady (because I definitely do). But he tries not to curse so much in front of me and things like that (not because I can’t handle it or anything), which I find nice. Girls like to be treated like princesses because it shows that your guy (or any guy) respects you, and thinks that he’s lucky to have you (likewise, I think that girls should also not take a guy for granted). In this day and age, chivalry is dying out. Songs with lyrics like, “These bitches I be doin’ in, hos I be screwin’ in…” make me cringe. I think a lot of women want to be treated with courtesy because it’s a breath of fresh air in this day and age.