Hey Closeted Homies,

A group on campus, Tuesdays @ 7, is hosting an event that’s all about the coming out process. If you’re newly out, in the process of coming out, or are straight and just want to know more about why it’s often so hard to come out, you should check out this event.

Closets are for Clothes: Opening the Door to the Coming Out Process

Date: Tuesday, November 10, 2009
Time: 7:00pm - 9:00pm
Location: ILLINI UNION 406

Facebook event can be found here.

I think I have begun to annoy my classmates. Nearly every opportunity that comes up in class which talks about discrimination, I end up talking about the gays. Today we were talking about how technology was used to oppress minorities. For instance, there was one tunnel built in New York that would allow only cars to pass through (no buses could fit). This meant that wealthy whites could drive their tiny cars to the beach but everyone who needed to take a bus could not go to the beach.

A question came up:

“… a quote from Dr. Martin Luther King Jr, ‘when scientific power outruns moral power, we end up with guided missiles and misguided men.’ It seems like Dr. King is suggesting that the further we progress in the field of technology, the further we regress in the field of morals. Do you agree with this sentiment? Does technology drive us away from our morals?”

Naturally I decided to bring up blood. Back in the 1980’s it seemed logical for the Red Cross to say, “Gays, you probably shouldn’t be allowed to donate blood.” Honestly, if tons of cases of AIDS were being reported and most seemed to be coming from gays, sure, I understand why the Red Cross would probably not want a lot of blood donations from gay guys.

Ah, but the times have improved. We now have much better technology that actually allows us to screen blood for HIV/AIDS and all the blood that is collected at blood drives must be screened. Yet gays still aren’t allowed to donate blood. Rather, gays who have had sex with someone since the 1970s (or some odd date). Why can’t gay donate?!

This actually answers the question with the inverse. In the 1980s, we did not have the technology (or it was not being used or it was expensive, I don’t know) to test. Therefore, morally, we decided to ban homosexuals from donating. Now we have increased technology, yet we use the outdated moral as a means of keeping gays from donating.

I brought this up in class today and no one seemed too phased by it. However, I mentioned this same bit of information to another class and people were shocked that gays can’t donate blood. They weren’t aware that this was happening. I think a lot of people do not realize just how oppressed gays are.

I’d like to start a guerrilla warfare on campus. Anytime opportunity presents itself to talk about gay rights, whether it be in class or on the quad or wherever, take it. Whenever a frat boy asks me to donate blood I look him in the eyes and say, “I can’t donate because I’m gay. They won’t let me.” I love watching his facial expressions as he tries to find something to say. Yes, massive petitions have been created to get our rights, yet occurrences such as the loss in Maine prove that that’s not enough.

I’m at a loss of what to do. Should we protest outside blood mobiles?

One last thing to think about: in Russia, gays can donate blood.

Just sayin’.

If you went to the rally and/or the National Equality March this weekend, please leave a comment about what you experienced out in D.C.

Sorry I had to tease you like that. We talked about so many things and I think quite a bit of it was worth bringing to the217. And now, the very final installment of Catholic School Boys.

W.T. So you do believe that sex out of wedlock or out of a committed relationship is not favorable?

Matt: Yeah, that’s what I personally believe. It works for me, but if someone else if having sex I’m not gonna freak out about it. I wouldn’t push it on anyone.

W.T. In school, did the topic of homosexuality ever come up with your friends?

Matt: Yeah, it was generally looked down upon. Fag was used sometimes and the word gay was used every other word. It was generally not a good thing. It was talked about and near the end of high school I had the discussion with some of my friends. One of my good female friends talked about how gays were cool, and then someone said something about me being gay, and at one point she said, “No, I know him, he couldn’t be gay.” She was still in the mindset where it’s not right to do religiously, but it’s cool and it’s okay. I don’t know how that works.

W.T. It seems like you’d feel guilt.

Matt: Yeah, it was definitely my second life.

W.T. So you started messing around 8th grade?

Matt: Or seventh grade. Maybe sixth grade. Somewhere in junior high. Messed around.

W.T. What were you thinking while you were doing that stuff?

Matt: Well I was enjoying it! Afterwards there was some guilt with it but it was definitely “this is fun, I want to do it again” sort of thing. For the other guy it was very much experimentation but for me it was definitely “I like guys.” There was a period in high school where I thought I would get over it. That it was a phase. I look back now on high school and I would never want to go back. I was so two-faced then, and that’s still there today if I would go back and visit friends. If I go hang out with them I revert to my old self, and I don’t like that version of myself.

W.T. Why do you think it’s necessary to keep on with that other face?

Matt: Partially for my parents. My sister doesn’t know. She should have figured it out by now. But my mom still works for the school. Her job wouldn’t be in jeopardy but there are people who would treat her differently. My friends would probably be like “whatever” but I only see them once or twice a year so I don’t care enough to really tell them. They’ll probably know at some point. I really don’t care who I tell but my mom has this super paranoid (NOTE: I’m not sure what Matt said here. A paranoid something. This interview took place at Murphy’s around 4 in the afternoon and some drunk guy screamed out in frustration while playing a video game. It was amazing.) … and it makes sense. My mom is completely cool with gays, but she thinks it’s wrong religiously so she thinks it’s wrong for me to do it. It’d be cool if you were to come over, if that makes sense.

W.T. Right, like if I came over and we played PlayStation or something.

Matt: Right. That’s okay!

W.T. What does she think the punishment for being gay is?

Matt: Being gay and practicing it, you’re going to Hell.

W.T. Your mom thinks you’re going to Hell.

Matt: No, at the same time she believes you can sin your whole life and repent and still go to Heaven. Theoretically I could go have a boyfriend for the next 40 or 50 years and then at the end I can repent and still go to Heaven.

W.T. Does she think you’d be willing to do that? Say at the end of your life that you would say, “Sorry, didn’t mean it.”

Matt: Haha, I don’t think I would do that, but she … what she really wants is for me to date a girl. Be normal.

W.T. How’s your relationship with God now?

Matt: Well like I said it’s sort of spiritual and religious but I don’t go to church.

W.T. What does being spiritual mean exactly?

Matt: I’ll just give you an example. In high school I told you we had to take religion classes. I got interested in the theology behind religion. I’ve been reading different theology books, some with clashing viewpoints on homosexuality. Lately I’ve been reading those and trying to figure out what I think.

W.T. Can you tell me about anything about the relationships you’ve been in. with the straight guys?

Matt: They aren’t real relationships. They’ve never been defined as “we’re dating.” We’ll mess around. I can pretty much say I’ve never had a boyfriend. We’ll mess around or constantly hang out and do everything together … and mess around. It’s like dating without the title. And that was the deal with the administrator’s son. They had a huge family and they all left for a while, for the summer. It was the two oldest brothers that stayed back. I was really good friends with the younger one and it was the older one where every day after work I would go over to their house. And we’d hang out and he usually ended up mostly naked. And then we’d end up wrestling.

W.T. How does one just end up naked?

Matt: He’s hot? Haha, he’s “I’m just so hot and need to take my shirt off. And I need to take my pants off too.”

W.T. So they were really in need of air conditioning or fans or something.

Matt: Right, that’s how one ends up naked. And that guy … we never did anything super sexual. We never went all the way. And then I’ve done things with guys … where we’ve done everything but sex. Like, everything that didn’t need a condom was done. That’s the other fun part. My parents think I’ve never done anything with a guy.

W.T. With your friends who do know, how does it affect your relationships with them?

Matt: It hasn’t really. They’re totally the same relationships. One of them I told because we were in a hotel in downtown Chicago and he was like, “Do you have any porn to watch?” And I was like, “I have porn but not stuff you want to watch.” And he’s like, “No you don’t! Show me!” He was completely cool with it.

W.T. So school, was it a good experience overall?

Matt: Yeah. I wouldn’t want to do it again.

W.T. If anything were to change at that school, what would you want it to be?

Matt: If they actually talked about it. If they addressed it in some way, shape, or form. And in the addressing of it if they even say, “We don’t like it but we like you and you’re here.” It needs to be the person’s choice, and not the school carting these kids off to Exodus camps.

W.T. You say choice, do you think it’s a choice to be gay?

Matt: Damn. You caught me using the wrong word. I don’t really think it’s a choice, but I’m not completely convinced either way. For me, I am completely mostly I would say 100% visually and sexually attracted to men. But I dated my girlfriend and was emotionally totally attached to her and physically things worked together. And that presents a problem to me defining it as not being a choice. And that’s why I don’t define myself.

W.T. Last question, what would you say to a student who is in a Catholic school right now, and he isn’t sure if he’s gay or not, but he’s questioning.

Matt: I would tell him to talk to someone about it. I think that the fact that I never told anyone or talked about it … it hindered me. And I probably wouldn’t talk to a teacher about it. It’s hard to find someone in a religious high school to talk to. Who do you talk to? If they’re in Champaign there’s a new RSO starting for gay Christians. It’s starting as a hangout group and an open discussion kind of group.

W.T. If he corners you and he says, “Tell me what you think about homosexuality,” what would you say to him?

Matt: I’m cool with it. I think that’s because of my own life and struggles back and forth deciding what I think about it. Even if I choose to go back and date my girlfriend, somehow we got married or something, but I would still be cool with my kids being gay. I think that’s the interesting thing about people who go to a Christian school and grow up in the church but want to be gay. Want to do both. I think the church needs to erase hate and not shun people away.

**

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Matt was actually the first guy I interviewed for the Catholic School Boys, but I saved him for last because I see him as having one of the more conservative backgrounds. If you haven’t realized this by now, one of my main goals with With Tongue is to prove that gay guys can come from many various backgrounds (whether they’re frat boys or Catholics or sissies or jocks). And, when you look into these separate categories, the backgrounds and experiences are often quite varied. No two gay men are the same. Like gay snowflakes.

The next series I will be doing will focus on gays (and, if I can find some, lesbians) who have a disability. I will be conducting interviews within a few weeks, and if you or someone you know would be willing to spend 30-60 minutes talking with me, it would be much appreciated. I can be contacted at withtongue@gmail.com.

And without any further adieu: the conclusion to Catholic School Boys. Matt is a 22 year old grad student at UIUC and went to a non-denominational Christian school in northern Illinois.

W.T. First, sexually how would you define yourself?

Matt: I don’t like to define myself, but I would normally define myself more gay.

W.T. How long did you go to your school?

Matt: From 3rd grade to senior year of high school. It was a whole class of 9 people.

W.T. Wow. What was sex education like at your school?

Matt: There was sex-ed in junior high. It was abstinence only. Sex was against the rules of the school, not to mention gay sex.

W.T. So it was abstinence only. When did you find out about contraception?

Matt: Oh, I don’t know. It was probably through parents, friends, and TV. Even though it was a Christian school it definitely wasn’t purist. I think I found out about sex from a friend in the third grade. But sex ed was definitely abstinence only and that was also pushed in Bible classes and what not. We had to take those every year.

W.T. Did they teach you about the reproductive system?

Matt: Yeah, sure, in biology. We learned where babies come from and everything. A lot of what they taught us about sex was a moral thing, not so much a focus on babies and STDs and AIDS. We had this class, Contemporary World Views, where they teach you about all these world views like Marxism, communism. And in the actual curriculum homosexuality was thrown in there.

W.T. Like right next to Nazis?

Matt: Haha, yeah, but the year I took it they took the homosexuality section out. The year before there were videos with the class and one of the videos showed two guys kidding. Some of the parents got upset and made them take it out.

W.T. When they talked about these views did they label any of them as bad?

Matt: No, overall that course was done well, but mostly because of the teacher that taught it. They would also say this is what they believe and contrast it with what Christian believe, but they wouldn’t say it’s necessarily bad.

W.T. That’s cool, so would you say your school was actually more liberal?

Matt: No. Not at all. We have two principals, and one of them is the kind of guy who thinks of tie-dye as the devil. Conservative. If he knew I was gay, he probably wouldn’t let me back in the school when I go home.

W.T. Alright, and do your parents know?

Matt: Yes. They kind of forced it out of me my sophomore year of college. I actually didn’t come out to anyone, or even myself until freshman year of college. The school was very conservative in that sense.

W.T. When do you think you first realized you were gay then?

Matt: Oh, in like junior high when I messed around with guys.

W.T. So tell me why you didn’t come out until college then.

Matt: Mostly because of the conservative viewpoint and I think a lot of my friends would not be okay with it. A lot of my high school friends don’t know. Or maybe they do now, I haven’t talked to a lot of them in a while. It was sort of like peer pressure I guess but really it was just the idea of “you don’t do that.” Even though junior year of high school I kind of had a thing with a school administrator’s son. And today he’s completely in the closet and getting married to a girl. But that’s a different story.

W.T. That sounds like a good story.

Matt: Let’s put it this way, all the guys I’ve ever dated are “straight.”

W.T. That sounds like really bad luck. Are you seeing anyone now?

Matt: No, not seeing anyone right now. Well, so then there’s the interesting thing in college, where I dated a girl. And this was after I came out. But we kind of just hit it off. And so then we decided to stop dating because I wasn’t really sure … well this is why I say I don’t define myself. I guess you could say I’m gay except for her. We’re totally still best friends and kind of sort of dating again, but not really. It’s interesting.

W.T. Are you still religious now? Were you even religious then?

Matt: Yes and no and yes. I definitely grew up in the church and my whole family is all about religion. It’s important. I was religious then. I did everything. I went to youth group and to church and did everything I was supposed to. I was a good little boy. Then in college I found a church that isn’t okay with gays, but they’re open about it. They’ll talk about it. It wasn’t like my church or school back home where the only mention of it was that you’re going to Hell.

W.T. What does this church say about it?

Matt: They think it’s sin, but they’re of the mindset of hate the sin, love the sinner. I started going to that and I’ve gone to it for a while. I did that for a church thing, but I also tried the no religion at all thing. Now I am back with the doing religion, but not organized religion. It’s been a lot of back and forth. My mom doesn’t accept that I like guys and that guys are hot, but she’s … she asked me a couple weeks ago if I was going to date my ex-girlfriend again. She’s a little bit about it right now but she’s still holding out. Thinking of it as a phase. A long phase. And she’s the fun mom who when she found out she asked me if I really wanted to have anal sex.

W.T. Haha, how did you answer?!

Matt: I stood up and laughed and walked away.

W.T. I hope you were walking crooked or something. So you say you’re religious but not necessarily organized. Do you follow a Bible at all?

Matt: Yeah, it’s a bit hard to explain. I would say I follow the basic beliefs of Evangelical Christianity but I haven’t completely settled on what I believe on the no gays or not verses.

W.T. What do you think about those verses?

Matt: I don’t like to think about them. Haha, they tell me I can’t do what I want to do! I have a wide range of friends and I have some who went to the church I am usually associated with. And they left that church because they decided they wanted to pursue gay relationships. That’s the thing, it’s cool if you’re in the church, but not if you’re acting on it. Two of them left, got married, and they go to the Quaker church. The Quaker church is okay with it. They got married in the Quaker church. They got married in Illinois last summer and they got legally married in Iowa.

W.T. How do you feel about gay marriage?

Matt: Well, I’m the bad gay guy who doesn’t care if it’s called marriage. I would be cool if it’s civil unions as long as it’s the exact same thing. A big part of the debate is just the word and I don’t find it necessary.

W.T. So you would say that marriage is between a man and a woman in the church?

Matt: I would say that’s how the church defines it. Personally I don’t care. And I would be perfectly fine with it not being called marriage for gays.

W.T. Do you ever foresee yourself getting married to a man? Or “civil unioned?”

Matt: Well, I foresee myself getting married in the future. There’s still the girlfriend thing.

W.T. Back to high school, what was dating like?

Matt: It was a little strange because it was such a small school. All my friends shared girlfriends, you know? Cause they’d break up or whatever. And that’d be strange because she’d put out for one guy and not the other. You always knew when people were sleeping together. They were sleeping together on teachers’ desks.

W.T. What! How is that possible? Where do you find the time?

Matt: Drama club, after school.

W.T. Oh, of course.

Matt: While we were taught abstinence, it definitely did not happen. When I was in 8th grade or a freshman, there were some guys in the high school who came out to some people. They ended up leaving the school. They left before they were asked to. That’s against the rules. It’s not morally acceptable. They would have been asked to leave because they were bad influences. Private schools don’t have any regulations so they can do that. The same thing would happen with people doing drugs.

W.T. Ah, so homosexuality, heroin…

Matt: Pot, yeah, it’s all the same thing.

W.T. The school considers it sexual deviance. What do you consider sexual deviance?

Matt: I think before I would have said … well I was the type of person who was not going to have sex before marriage, but maybe I would do other things.

W.T. Is that still true for you?

Matt: Yes. I haven’t had sex before marriage. I don’t know how strongly I still feel about that though. I think it’s more of a committed thing, not a marriage thing. Maybe partially do to the fact that you can’t legally get married in the state.

W.T. Unless you’re with the Quakers. But I guess that isn’t necessarily coming with legal rights. How do you feel about the priest scandal? How did it affect your view on homosexuality?

Matt: I don’t think it changed my view a lot actually. My view on homosexuality in the church is that they don’t do it right. I’m okay with churches saying that they don’t think it’s right, but I don’t agree with how they act towards it. That they make it one of those unmentionable topics and that it’s among the worst sins. The church’s view and treatment of it needs to be different. It needs to be more of an open discussion.

W.T. How do you feel about the organizations that try to convert you from homosexual to heterosexual?

Matt: Like Exodus? That’s the big one. I don’t want to speak too harshly. I don’t like them. I have a lot of friends that have done it. I have a few friends who have done it and say they’re straight. But it’s not that simple. One of the guys would say he’s straight, but he’ll also have days where he will feel gay. He’s really attracted to guys. But he feels that the Bible is right and that it’s wrong, and therefore he’s going to compromise his sexuality for religion. It’s something I’m not willing to do. At least I don’t think I am. I’d have a really hard time doing it, I think. Choosing one or the other is giving up on something that’s a part of me.

W.T. Can you tell me a little bit more about your friend who’s straight now?

Matt: He at least at one point had a girlfriend. I know he doesn’t have one now. He think it’s not right to be gay so he’s not gonna do it. I’m sure he’s sexually frustrated. He definitely deals with it on a daily basis. He actually works for a church and he’s in seminary right now. He’s definitely committed to it. He has an interesting story too and I won’t really get into it, but he was totally a little slut before that.

END PART 1

Coming up in Part 2: guilt, spirituality, dating, whether or not it’s a choice, and more on the administrator’s son

It has come to my attention that David Sedaris will be in town October 16th at the Virginia Theatre.

If you know how to read or if ever listen to NPR (you hipster schmuck) you probably know his work. He’s that gay writer who was an elf once. Yeah, that one.

If you have the change to spare, you should definitely grab a ticket. They don’t do online purchases but you can call them up at 217.356.9063 to get in on the action. Or you can check out their website which will tell you to do the same thing. That is possible here.

Catholic School Boys is almost over (one story left and this one gets pretty juicy) but if you enjoy the topic of sexuality and spirituality you should check out this event on campus. It will be a “panel … comprised of students, parents, and religious leaders representing a variety of faiths and experiences, followed by discussion.”

Also, I’m not sure if it’s still possible to jump on the Washington, D.C. bandwagon, but here’s the link to UIUC’s participation and the link for the NO H8 campaign’s flash protest taking place the day before the march.

First, don’t worry, there’s still one more Catholic School Boy article coming out. But, since it’s October, I want to mention that I saw Sorority Row last night. If you’ve ever enjoyed watching bitches fight (e.g. Desperate Housewives, Sex & the City, Glee, WifeSwap), you’ll love seeing them kill each other with a lug wrench. And an axe.

I don’t want to get into spoiling this movie for you because you should really go see it. It involves lots of naked people (men and women) so even if you’re not interested in teeny bopper murder you can at least get off a few times.

What I do want to tell you, however, is that while I was looking for reviews of the movie, I came across a blog by a queer who critiques horror movies. It’s called CampBlood Blog and you should really check it out if you’re into slasher/horror movies.

Aight. Time to go write a paper on madness. Happy October everybody!

Yo. These guys are all headed out to the march in D.C. in a few weeks but need a few more people in order to ensure a bus ride out there. Check ‘em out here.

The following is from one of their mass mails:

Last chance to GET ON THE BUS to DC! Join the National Equality March!

If you have not purchased a ticket by THIS Thursday at midnight, then you will not be able to get on the local bus!

On October 11, thousands of activists and concerned citizens from around the country will gather in Washington, D.C. to march for LGBT liberation.

From the organizers:

“We are guaranteed equal protection by the 14th Amendment of the US Constitution. Free and equal people do not bargain for or prioritize our rights, so we are coming to DC this October 10-11 to demand equal protection in all matters governed by civil law in all 50 states. Now.
The march is not our final destination. It is our first step toward building a national grassroots network that will continue organizing until we have achieved full equality.”
“Full equality necessarily includes all members of the LGBT community and encompasses, but is not limited to:
The right to work our jobs and go to school free of harassment and discrimination.
The right to safety in our daily lives, and protection from hate crimes.
The right to equitable healthcare, and the right to donate blood.
The right to equitable immigration policies.
The right to marry.
The right to serve in the military openly.
Many bills currently exist to address some of these issues, but we do not support a piecemeal strategy. We seek one federal solution to full equality.”

————————————————————————————–

The NEM is locally sponsored by eQuality C-U, and we are selling tickets for seats on a bus to get us to DC. But TIME is running out! If you want to go, get in touch with us NOW!

You can purchase a ticket on the Quad this Thursday from noon to 1PM near the U of I bookstore on Wright St., or you can contact for for other ways to get your ticket. But hurry, because there are only a few days left!

Pat originally hails from out west: Grapevine, Texas. He went to Holy Trinity Catholic School from kindergarten through 8th grade. The school was co-ed and catered to Roman Catholics.

W.T. When did sex ed start at your school?

Pat: 4th grade. It consisted of the basics. How it works, how it’s done. 4th grade was more about how babies are made and this is what boys have and this is what girls have.5th grade was more about social aspects and how sex is viewed in Catholic life. Specifically everything is a sin before marriage. Doing anything sexual turns you away from God. The things that stuck out in my mind: masturbation’s a sin. Don’t do it.

W.T. But they told you what it was?

Pat: Yes, they told us what it was and they defined it, and immediately following it said masturbation is a sin and it turns you away from God. It’s a very serious thing. And I guess they talked about anti-gay stuff too. Definitely by 5th grade. Again, everything is a sin. Sex before marriage is a sin.

W.T. What’d they say about gays?

Pat: Well, they quote the Bible about how sodomy is a sin. Homosexuality in general is a sin. And of course they used logic saying, “Sex before marriage is a sin, and since gay people can’t get married, they’re constantly sinners.” Even your thoughts shouldn’t be that way, because when you do the symbol of the cross on your head, you shouldn’t be thinking impure thoughts.

W.T. What’d they say about contraception? Did they tell you it even existed?

Pat: No, it was very abstinence-only. Don’t do it. Don’t have sex, you’ll get pregnant or you’ll get a disease and you’ll die or you’ll have a baby and it will be the worst thing. I don’t ever really remember learning about contraception until I took a health class freshman year in Illinois. It was a public school then and in a video, and they told us it was an option.

W.T. Do you ever remember talking about homosexuality with your peers?

Pat: Not that I can really remember. It was such a taboo thing you didn’t say. No one was gay and it was expected that you weren’t. I went to a YMCA summer camp once which I guess has Christian affiliations, and if you ever did something that was gay you were completely made fun of. It was pretty bad. It was definitely used as an insult. A big putdown.

W.T. Alright, and when did you come out?

Pat: Two years ago, so sophomore year of college.

W.T. Are you out to your parents?

Pat: No. My mother is from Sicily. Her entire family is from Sicily. They were raised extremely devout Catholic. All of them are very devout and all of them are very anti-gay. Very intolerant of it and unaccepting. And then there’s my father’s side. He’s from Louisiana. So they were raised in the south, but my dad had a brother who was gay, and he died of AIDS. That was maybe 6 – 8 years ago. And so I think he blamed gay people for killing his brother. And he’s ex-military. He used to be in the army, in Vietnam. So does that make sense as to why I’m a bit hesitant?

W.T. Are you dependent on your parents?

Pat: I am for undergrad, but once I graduate in 7 months I am cut off. So at that point I won’t be dependent on them. That definitely has a factor with coming out to my mother. She likes to use that Italian guilt to hold anything over my head. She pays for my car insurance for example. I can’t afford that on my own. And if I don’t do something that she wants, she’ll threaten to take that away. So I guess you could say it’s a financial move.

W.T. Are there other repercussions?

Pat: My mother has made it quite obvious that she does not like gay people whatsoever. Being an only child is also harder because they only have me and I guess there’s sort of an unconditional love that could run out.

W.T. When did you first realize you were gay?

Pat: Not until junior high. If I did have thoughts before then, they were stamped out.

W.T. Did you ever date girls?

Pat: Yeah. One relationship was pretty serious. At the time it was anyway. And then freshman year of college I dated a girl for a while. That was a clusterfuck because I really didn’t know what I liked at that point. I was going back and forth. It may have been more of a way to prove something to myself. It ended with, “I’m not really attracted to you.” She knows now and she’s kind of whatever. The one from high school loves it and she thinks it’s awesome. The other one’s just like, “Okay.”

W.T. Has your idea of sexual deviance changed over time?

Pat: Yes. When I first started college I truly believed that you would go to Hell if you had sex before marriage. There was no doubt in my mind. That’s what you’re told and I believed it. I had no reason not to. And now I believe if God really is there, I would really hope he has more important things to worry about than who you’re having sex with.

W.T. You said, “If God really is there,” so what do you believe today?

Pat: I call myself reformed Catholic. I believe religion is a very personal thing and you should believe what you want. It doesn’t matter what anyone else believes. I believe in God and Jesus and all that good stuff, but the fine print is different for me than what it is for the Roman Catholic Church. I don’t really like that there’s a set way to believe in something.

W.T. How do you feel about the Bible?

Pat: It’s a mistranslation. It’s a 4,000 year old book that is riddled with mythology, which we don’t understand because we don’t have any Hebrew speakers, by which I mean Hebrew as it was spoken back then. It’s a book that’s so outdated and out of touch that I don’t really believe in it at all. It’s just good literature. It shows human psyche from 4,000 years ago and I think that’s worth something.

W.T. How do you feel about the sacraments? If you were to get married, would you want it to be in a church?

Pat: I wouldn’t want it to be somewhere I’m not welcome, so I don’t think it would be there.

W.T. Is it important for you to be married in the eyes of God?

Pat: In my opinion I still would be. I would probably go through a church that does accept it.

W.T. Do you want to get married at some point?

Pat: I think at some point in my life, yes. If anything for tax purposes at the very least. That may or may not make me a horrible person but I’m okay with that. Love without marriage is still love. But taxes without marriage are so damn expensive.

W.T. How do you feel about adoption?

Pat: I think it’s a wonderful thing and there needs to be more of it. If I were to have kids I would probably take that route. I do want an Asian baby, not gonna lie.

W.T. Was there ever any guilt when coming to terms with your homosexuality?

Pat: There was a lot of self-hatred and a lot of self-doubt that was really eating away at me and almost consuming me to a point. Then again, this was when I started going through a minor religious crisis and that’s when I started to become in the religious mode that I am in now. You can’t be both, according to the church.

W.T. Can you explain a little bit about the self-doubt?

Pat: When you’re told from the time you’re 4 or 5 through the time you’re 13 or 14 that being this way is a one-way ticket to Hell and God hates you and you are not accepted, you don’t exist. They don’t recognize you. It was very, “Why me?” If we’re all made in God’s image, then why is that not true for some of us?

W.T. How did the priest scandal affect you?

Pat: It was a mixture of disappointment, anger, and embarrassment. They look like big hypocrites. They’re outcasts now in their respected communities. I felt a little vindication because now they felt what it was like to be hated and looked down upon.

W.T. Alright, if someone were to sit a gay student at a Catholic school next to you right now, what would you say to this kid?

Pat: (pause) I really don’t even know what I would say to them. See, I never really had someone say this to me.

W.T. What would you want them to say to you?

Pat: I would want them to say that God doesn’t hate you. And just because someone tells you that he does, it’s not necessarily true. I would also tell them not to believe everything they hear. Question everything with a good amount of skepticism. Questioning authority is a good thing. That no matter what you will still be loved in some capacity. And it doesn’t matter if one person doesn’t like you and they cast you away for that, that’s their loss, not yours. Take it with stride and just keep going.

W.T. Is there anything else you would like to let people know about being gay and religious?

Pat: I guess I’m just very sad that my childhood educators caused me to hate myself for such a long period of time. They’re supposed to be the foundation of the rest of your life and they’re supposed to be the ones who instill self worth and happiness and independence on your own. At that age it’s really not even just about learning things, but about yourself as well. Learning how to be a functioning person and learning how to love yourself. And they didn’t do a good job of that. That really makes me sad to know that for those 8 years they really weren’t doing their job.