7
2008
Live Blogging Presidential Debate #2, or Is Barack Obama As Dangerous As John McCain Is Living in 1973?
posted by Carl Newman at 5:08 pm.
Tune in tonight at 8 and you’ll see two candidates for president in an increasingly aggressive campaign try to answer questions. But tune in with my live blog, and you’ll get that, plus mockery and a drinking game.
Tonight’s Drinking Game Buzzwords:
Maverick
Change
Middle-Class
Reform
Bush
Reagan
Predictions: Both candidates need to give direct, specific policy answers to win tonight. I expect Barack will continue to call his opponent “John” and McCain will call his oppenent “Senator Obama.” Further, I doubt either one will mention their running mate by name, but Obama is more likely to reference Palin. McCain might bring up examples of Biden voting differently than Obama (or Obama’s rhetoric, if the vote was before 2004). I’m hoping that the questions are confined to the economy, the war on terror, and energy. Everything else is secondary, but Iran and Pakistan are both likely to make an appearance.
See you at 8 (bring a beer).
7:58 MSNBC has a countdown clock to the debate in the corner that says “Obama McCain Face Off.”
I think we can all agree that Obama is Nick Cage and McCain is Travolta.
8:05 Obama: … that essentially said that we should strip away regulations, consumer protections, let the market run wild, and prosperity would rain down on all of us. It hasn’t worked out that way. And so now we’ve got to take some decisive action.
(Bush) Trickle down economics don’t work. Check mate, Ronnie.
8:06 McCain: Now, I have a plan to fix this problem and it has got to do with energy independence. We’ve got to stop sending $700 billion a year to countries that don’t want us very — like us very much.
(Middle class x3) John McCain is great at these style of debates, at least partially because he addresses the person who asked the question.
Now then, the popular claim that we send $700 billion to foreign nations that don’t like us for oil:
try $536 billion and a third of it to Mexico, Canada, and the U.K.
McCain’s plan to revalue the mortgages was first presented as a solution to the mortgage crisis was proposed originally (to my knowledge) by Bill Clinton.
8:08 Brokaw: Who would you have as treasury secretary?
McCain:But the point is it’s going to have to be somebody who inspires trust and confidence
Who inspires more trust than Obama supporter, Warren Buffet?
8:10 Obama: Well, Warren would be a pretty good choice…Prosperity is not just going to trickle down. We’ve got to help the middle class.
(middle class) Obama is going to avoid the question of who to appoint as treasury secretary (because it’s a dumb question, and answering questions about potential cabinet appointees in general is) and continue to attack trickle down economics.
8:12 McCain:I left my campaign and suspended it to go back to Washington to make sure that there were additional protections for the taxpayer…
McCain calls all the questioners by their first name, but insists on saying “senator Obama.”
McCain is going to bring up suspending his campaign (quitting) as an example of leadership despite the fact that most people think it was a political stunt.
Fannie and Freddie are sponsored by the government to encourage home ownership, they were overzealous in this pursuit. And if McCain’s going to bring up campaign contributions, let’s talk about the savings and loan crisis, or Rick Davis (McCain’s campaign manager) being on the payroll for Freddie.
8:13 If Obama stays specific in his answers, instead of attacking McCain directly, he will win this debate.
8:14 McCain’s assessment that Fannie and Freddie were the problem is flawed, as Obama is arguing (not too professorially, thank God) that they were a problem because of deregulation. And deregulation is the real root cause. Obama didn’t name Rick Davis but brought him up. This style will make his attacks seem softer.
8:17 Recent polls suggest that the only major issue where the general public favors McCain is dealing with the war on terror.
8:19 It’s too bad that Clinton had to go and get blown that time, because his presidency was great for our economy, and Democrats can’t mention him by name anymore.
8:20 We don’t borrow from the Chinese, we offer our debt for sale, and the Chinese just happen to be the ones who buy it.
8:21 McCain: I have advocated and taken on the special interests, whether they be the big money people by reaching across the aisle and working with Sen. [Russ] Feingold [D-Wisconsin] on campaign finance reform, whether it being a variety of other issues, working with Sen. Lieberman on trying to address climate change.
(Reform) The one area where McCain has really gone bipartisan (and the only one he could name just now) was campaign finance reform.
8:22 McCain: Do you know that Sen. Obama has voted for — is proposing $860 billion of new spending now? New spending. Do you know that he voted for every increase in spending that I saw come across the floor of the United States Senate while we were working to eliminate these pork barrel earmarks?
Yes, John. I have heard every distortion and exaggeration that your campaign has produced about Obama.
8:23 McCain: When you have to look at our proposals for our economy, not $860 billion in new spending, but for the kinds of reforms that keep people in their jobs, get middle-income Americans working again, and getting our economy moving again.
I feel compelled to remind John about John Maynard Keynes, the noted economist. If there’s a recession coming, government should spend more. Keynesian economics were discredited when they went to extremes, but the fundamental principal that increasing government spending to create jobs when the economy is losing them, works. Also, that our current financial crisis is (all too frequently) compared to the Great Depression, which was finally overcome by unprecedented spending by the government on preparations for war.
8:25 McCain: We can work on nuclear power plants. Build a whole bunch of them, create millions of new jobs. We have to have all of the above, alternative fuels, wind, tide, solar, natural gas, clean coal technology. All of these things we can do as Americans and we can take on this mission and we can overcome it.
Energy solutions take time, and the problem in Washington and Wall street has been an inability to commit to the long view. When they say that they want to end dependence on foreign oil, they never talk about how long that will take.
Obama just said 10 years, which seems a reasonable conjecture. (It’s anybody’s guess).
8:28 Brokaw: All right, gentlemen, I want to just remind you one more time about time. We’re going to have a larger deficit than the federal government does if we don’t get this under control here before too long.
Tom Brokaw is a funny motherfucker.
8:29 McCain:And I recommend a spending freeze that — except for defense, Veterans Affairs, and some other vital programs, we’ll just have to have across-the-board freeze.
The freeze of spending is an idea that McCain proposed in the senate before. It was defeated, handily.
8:29 McCain:I saved the taxpayers $6.8 billion in a deal for an Air Force tanker that was done in a corrupt fashion.
The 6.8 billion McCain saved us was on a boeing contract. That could’ve generate 44,000 jobs by Boeing’s estimate. They were corrupt, but they would’ve made jobs.
8:30 McCain is saying that America can do absolutely anything. This is nice, but not true.
8:32 I love Barack, but the fact is his line about how we need to make the cars of tomorrow made here and not in South Korea or Japan is flatly jingoistic. The only way the “cars of the future” will be built here is if American car companies pull their heads out from up their asses, and the President, while powerful, may not be able to do that.
8:33 Brokaw: Sen. Obama, as we begin, very quickly, our discussion period, President Bush, you’ll remember, last summer, said that “Wall Street got drunk.”A lot of people now look back and think the federal government got drunk and, in fact, the American consumers got drunk.
Tom Brokaw is a really funny motherfucker.
8:35 Obama ought to put the earmarks in terms of a percentage of overall federal budget. I don’t know why he keeps saying$18 billion, instead of less than five percent. (18 billion out of 540.1 billion of discretionary, non-defense spending).
8:36 McCain: But he wants to raise taxes. My friends, the last president to raise taxes during tough economic times was Herbert Hoover, and he practiced protectionism as well, which I’m sure we’ll get to at some point.
The last president to raise taxes during hard times was Herbert Hoover? Try FDR, McCain, when the upper tax bracket was 94% to pay for WWII. By the way, Hoover? The original free-market, deregulatin’ Republican type.
8:38 John McCain wants to leave taxes low, cut spending, and make jobs. Which all sound nice, but aren’t fundamentally what the federal government is geared towards. Especially since, even if he won, he’d have a Democratic congress.
8:41 McCain: Sure. Hey, I’ll answer the question. Look — look, it’s not that hard to fix Social Security, Tom. It’s just…Social Security is not that tough. We know what the problems are, my friends, and we know what the fixes are. We’ve got to sit down together across the table. It’s been done before.
McCain started the answer by saying “I’m going to answer the question,” and then said, “We’re going to make a committee to find the answer.”
8:44 McCain: And I introduced the first legislation, and we forced votes on it. That’s the good news, my friends. The bad news is we lost.
John McCain takes a lot of credit for bills he introduced (but never passed) and attacks Obama on bills that he supported, like the bill to “cut off funding to the troops” (but never passed). Apparently, in McCain’s political ideology, close counts in more than horseshoes and hand grenades.
8:46 Obama is quite clearly the greener candidate. If it weren’t for the mortgage crisis, voters might actually give a shit about that.
8:47 Brokaw: Gentlemen, you may not have noticed, but we have lights around here. They have red and green and yellow and they are to signal…
That Tom Brokaw is one bad motherfucker.
8:48 McCain:You know who voted for it? You might never know. That one. You know who voted against it? Me.
McCain just pointed to Obama and said “that one.” He’s starting to look desperate.
8:51 Obama:We’re going to do it by making sure that we use information technology so that medical records are actually on computers instead of you filling forms out in triplicate when you go to the hospital. That will reduce medical errors and reduce costs.
Mandating “paperless” insurance is something that government must do because the companies will never do it themselves due to inertia. They are moving towards it, but painstakingly slow.
8:53 The most effective health care systems are at least partially government run.
8:54 McCain: If you’re a small business person and you don’t insure your employees, Sen. Obama will fine you. Will fine you. That’s remarkable. If you’re a parent and you’re struggling to get health insurance for your children, Sen. Obama will fine you.
What McCain calls “Cadillac” health care plans include the health benefits offered to UAW workers.
And he keeps saying that if you don’t have healthcare Obama is going to fine you for not having insurance. That would sound crazy if it wasn’t the exact same way that auto insurance works.
Essentially, the plans break down to this. McCain: Everybody shops around, prices go down. Obama: Employer based healthcare can work, if we make it work. Neither idea is really sure to work.
8:57 Obama: Now, it’s true that I say that you are going to have to make sure that your child has health care, because children are relatively cheap to insure and we don’t want them going to the emergency room for treatable illnesses like asthma.And when Sen. McCain says that he wants to provide children health care, what he doesn’t mention is he voted against the expansion of the Children’s Health Insurance Program that is responsible for making sure that so many children who didn’t have previously health insurance have it now.
Obama is staying specific on healthcare, and that’s what he needs to do on every issue.
9:00 Questioner: Yes. Sen. McCain, how will all the recent economic stress affect our nation’s ability to act as a peacemaker in the world?
Our economic woes will not affect our military significantly, we’ll always add to the debt if there’s an issue we feel justifies military action. Next question.
9:02 McCain: But the challenge is to know when the United States of American can beneficially effect the outcome of a crisis, when to go in and when not, when American military power is worth the expenditure of our most precious treasure.
“When to go in and when not?” Like not in Iraq. That would’ve been good.
9:05 “We’re not going to be able to be everywhere all the time.” Didn’t McCain tell me that America could do everything?
9:06 McCain: f we had done what Sen. Obama wanted done in Iraq, and that was set a date for withdrawal, which Gen. [David] Petraeus, our chief — chairman of our Joint Chiefs of Staff said would be a very dangerous course to take for America
If we had set a date for withdrawal in Iraq, we would’ve left Iraq by now. Ask the 150,000 dead Iraqis how great a force for good we are, John.
9:09 Brokaw: let’s see if we can establish tonight the Obama doctrine and the McCain doctrine for the use of United States combat forces in situations where there’s a humanitarian crisis, but it does not affect our national security.
McCain’s War on Terror - “We’ll just keep doing it, until it’s done.” Obama’s “We’re only going to do it where we’ll win.(READ: NOT IRAQ).”
9:13 Brokaw: I’m just the hired help here, so, I mean…
Tom Brokaw is a badass.
9:15 McCain:I’ll get Osama bin Laden, my friends. I’ll get him. I know how to get him.I’ll get him no matter what and I know how to do it.
Just like Nixon’s secret plan to end the war in Vietnam and it was expand it to Cambodia.
9:18 Obama: We’re also going to have to work with the Karzai government, and when I met with President Karzai, I was very clear that, “You are going to have to do better by your people in order for us to gain the popular support that’s necessary.”
I wish our government was more responsive to local citizenry.
9:18 Won’t admit the surge worked? Except the time he said it was successful beyond our wildest dreams?
9:23 Obama: hat’s part of what happened in Afghanistan, where we rushed into Iraq and Sen. McCain and President Bush suggested that it wasn’t that important to catch bin Laden right now and that we could muddle through, and that has cost us dearly.
Obama is tying McCain to the decision to go to Iraq, which most of America agrees was monstrously fucking stupid.
9:24 McCain: It’s not just a threat — threat to the state of Israel. It’s a threat to the stability of the entire Middle East.
Iran will not attack Israel. Not directly, it might act through terrorist groups supported by the government, but never through direct government action. All this stuff about not allowing a second holocaust makes it sound like Israel is helpless (I think America must support Israel, just not blindly so). Israel needs our political support in many ways, but it often sounds like McCain is suggesting that we go to war on Israel’s behalf. Let’s not underestimate the Israelis. They invented the Uzi submachine gun, after all. Jews kick ass, even without our help.
9:26 McCain: Now, Sen. Obama without precondition wants to sit down and negotiate with them, without preconditions. That’s what he stated, again, a matter of record.
McCain always brings up this “without precondition” thing without ever saying what preconditions he would insist on.
9:28 Obama: And that’s why I have consistently said that, if we can work more effectively with other countries diplomatically to tighten sanctions on Iran, if we can reduce our energy consumption through alternative energy, so that Iran has less money, if we can impose the kinds of sanctions that, say, for example, Iran right now imports gasoline, even though it’s an oil-producer, because its oil infrastructure has broken down, if we can prevent them from importing the gasoline that they need and the refined petroleum products, that starts changing their cost-benefit analysis. That starts putting the squeeze on them.
Obama’s details on Iran are strong. Ahmadinejad is a fucking nutbag, and when he’s gone we still have a powerful country in the Middle East to deal with, which is part of why a comprehensive view is necessary.
9:35 My Debate analysis
Economy: Obama still wins
Taxes: McCain hates taxes, Obama loves job creation. Point jobs.
Iraq: McCain wins (not for me personally, but that’s what he is perceived as). Doesn’t matter especially, this has always been McCain’s issue.
Iran: America doesn’t care.
Pakistan: Obama wins.
Overall, Obama won the debate, McCain won Colorado, but probably not Florida off this debate.
Side note on recent dirty campaigning: I believe that the real reason that the Bill Ayer’s - Obama and Keating 5- McCain issues were not mentioned is because both attacks are fundamentally character attacks. And neither is actually relevant to the question of who should be the next president.
